Do you think in the UK that men and women are equal???
But first a youtube clip from our sponsors...
Some excellent thoughts on christian feminsts, kicked off by Geoff and Mak and Julie respond brilliantly! Now I confess i'm the wrong person to ask, being male, but i wonder what this looks like in the UK?
My observation living in London, working in an environment where women are treated as equals and a church tradition which is positive about women leaders means that my views might be rose tinted? After all I would consider myself a feminist in the sense of viewing woman as equals both in terms of my social values and my christian ones. But do my actions reflect my belief?
Growing equalities...
We seem to have a culture where men treat women as equals in public - such that previous courtesies based on perceived female weakness like holding open a door or offering a seat on public transport have fallen by the wayside [one casualty has been offering pregnant woman a seat on the tube in case it offends and the piloting of a baby on board badge by Transport for London]
In education girls outperform boys and there is question as to whether that is because girls are smarter or just the education system caters for them better (or see here).
In jobs the number of women who hold top positions is growing fast (although still a relatively low proportion: for example in running local authorities it is 1 in 4 who are wome, although this has doubled in 10 yrs and seems a trend set to continue).
In the media woman are portrayed as equal to men and seem to delight in out ladding the lads (all those swearing, drinking, shagging ladettes take a bow!). If that was a reaction to the lads culture of the 90s than the noughty girl is flaunting her independence and wealth like never before.
In advertising one of the most successful advertising campaigns of all time has been the Dove "real woman" marketing (from which the youtube clip above comes from). This has seen sales of Dove products treble as women embrace the message that beautiful is who they are not what they are supposed to be like.
Interestingly as well women seem to exploit the desire of men to objectify them as sex objects as a way to be famous, the rise of lads magazines and the number of women willing to be photographed almost naked is seem as almost ironic gesture, exploiting men in order to achieve fame and fortune and then laugh about it. Conversely the number of articles, magazines, images where men are posed as objects for women to use for their own advantage also seems to be on the rise.
In fact a report last year said that the new underclass was white teen boys.
Complacent to inequalities?
In a me first world where all seems well on the surface i wonder if it is allowing us to be complacent? My fear is that we are equal on the outside but are we merely being polite, forcing the issue out of sight rather than continue to actively address it?
For example:
- violence against women by men is very high;
- 20% of teen girls questioned in Scotland self harm and a similar survey in england found it to be 10% - what image are girls (and boys) being told is beauty/success?
- the continues profileration of porn and the sex traffic in the UK with the Home Office estimating that 4,000 women are enslaved;
- the gap between men and women's pay is still significant and the Equal Opportunities commission estimated it will take 45 years for women to receive similar pensions to men, 25 years for part-time workers to be paid the same rate and 200 years for the "power gap" in Parliament to close.
- and it won't be until 2025 until the number of female priests in the church of England is likely to match the number of men.
What do you think we as christians in the UK (and elsewhere) should be?
man, all I can say is that ad was disturbing - those images almost made me physically ill.
I think we need to seriously explore the meaning of "unique" and "different" but equal - which is different from the false belief that gender is socially contrived. As trite as it sounds, it's gotta start at the grass roots level, girl by girl, and with radical campaigns like the dove campaign. The sad truth is that sex really DOES sell and I'm not sure how to get around it.
Posted by: Makeesha Fisher | 17 October 2007 at 11:16 PM
I really don't understand the whole third wave (?) feminism that seeks for women to control men by using our bodies. While I support a more holistic view of the body than that which is usually found in the church, I don't see how achieving power through letting others use your body really isn't just a sad ploy by men to give women the illusion of empowerment.
Posted by: Julie Clawson | 18 October 2007 at 03:06 AM
Thanks Mak. I wonder how far it has become a case of our bodies being treated as commodities to be exploited?
Posted by: Paul | 18 October 2007 at 06:10 PM
Thanks Julie. I guess it's a form of exploiting the exploiters but it seems to be to just add up to more exploitation rather than breaking the cycle. Would you mind saying more about the more holistic view of the body that you support?
Posted by: Paul | 18 October 2007 at 06:20 PM
Wow, great subject Paul. It seems to me that the whole using sex as means to get power, money etc reflects a lack of respect for men or women, we're all just reduced to a means to an end, to be used by one another to get what we want. Maybe that is empowerment and maybe it does make women equal is some respects but it's not the kind of equality I'd like to see.
Posted by: Kamsin | 18 October 2007 at 09:14 PM
basic boundaries 101 - we teach people how to treat us. we're still allowing each other to treat us as objects...probably because there CAN BE a payoff involved - either emotionally or otherwise. Until this stops, I can't see the behavior changing. We also need to make sure we're getting to the root, the heart of why we use one another - what soul sickness causes us to sin in this way?
and on a totally different note, why, even though I accept cookies and click "remember personal info", does my information never get saved on your blog paul? FIX IT! ;)
Posted by: Makeesha | 18 October 2007 at 10:13 PM
I think that people have got to realise that equality is not the same as being the same? Men and Women are different, and I think sometimes feminism can be taken to the extreme of women trying to be 'male'?
At the same time, since becoming a Christian I've really struggled with accepting that I'm a woman! Because 'Christian woman' has brought a whole new set of connotations that just aren't me at all!
Part of this I'm sure is the fact that as a teenager, I was taught to use my sexuality to get what I wanted. It sure worked to get me into a number of pubs and clubs when I was 15/16 anyway.
One thing that drove me crazy last year was that I was in a really tough job line managing 22 staff, running a community centre and got paid less for it that my boyfriend did while doing a student internship for an engineering company. In essence, I had more responsibility and challenges but was in a historically predominantly female job, and he was in a predominantly male job. It really made me wonder what the point in going to university and getting a good degree was...
Posted by: Laura Anne | 18 October 2007 at 11:03 PM
I have never known a feminist who wants to be "like a man". The closest I've ever gotten is some fringe elements of "secular", european feminism from the 60 suggested that gender is a socially contrived creation. I and most feminists I know think this is wacky.
Posted by: Makeesha Fisher | 19 October 2007 at 12:03 AM
Thanks Kamsin, that does seem a strange way to get equality - to be as bad as your oppressor, it almost seems to normalise the situation and allow for it to continue.
What kind of equality would you like to see?
Posted by: Paul | 19 October 2007 at 12:41 PM
Thanks Mak, yes it has got payoff attached to it - so many people role model it as a way of getting famous or rich, or both. But even on a personal level the images around us form us, allow us to be accepted or rejected etc. Is it just a means of getting emotional and mental security?
Posted by: Paul | 19 October 2007 at 12:48 PM
in the blog that does not remember personal information stakes we are equal Mak - my blog does not remember it's creator nor it would seem it's excellent contributors!
Posted by: Paul | 19 October 2007 at 12:49 PM
Thanks Laura Anne, what do you mean when you say some feminists want to be male?
And what expectations do you find being a christian woman that you struggle with?
I can sympathise on the job front, Debs used to run a care home and got paid nothing whereas i am a rich fat cat of an accountant - the system is on its head when it comes to paying people - which may reflect a gender bias or that our values are skewed...
Posted by: Paul | 19 October 2007 at 12:53 PM
I guess I mean certain behaviours - the 'ladettes' out there - had a lot of girls trying to prove they can drink just as much as guys, or that they are just as strong as guys - which is so unhealthy - we are built differently. Quite often they are given the 'feminist' label, but not a true reflection of feminism...I guess 'feminism' has been a word that gets used not always correctly.
On the pressures of being a Christian woman - I blogged about this back in June...
http://brunettekoala.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/lets-not-be-cookie-cutter-christians/
Posted by: Laura Anne | 19 October 2007 at 07:24 PM
Thanks Laure Anne, yes i think feminism is a label that means different things to different people and it is quite easy to tag someone with something that is loaded with my own hangups!
I loved your post on being a christian woman - well worth the read!
Posted by: Paul | 20 October 2007 at 01:30 PM
Hi Paul, great blog.
I agree with Laura-Anne's comment about women being equal to men not meaning that they should become like men; that is a worrying trend [laddette culture take a bow indeed] which implies that femininity is something to be ashamed of, than being masculine is in some way better, and, ironically, seems to take all the negative aspects of traditional macho male culture along for the ride.
While we have gone a long way and are still significantly ahead of less emancipated nations - and I refer to Southern and Eastern European countries as well as my African and Asian brothers - there is far too much violence against women, an almost casual attitude by many men towards sexual assault [often only manifested in "dressing room" type situations], a notable lack of women in senior positions in business and the pay discrepancy between what are perceived as "male" and "female" roles in society, even within business [publishing and entertainment may not be as cash-rich industries as accounting but 50% less pay?].
i think we need to look at the Scandinavian model, not just economically but socially; women are and have been equal to men for some time and this is reflected in the workplace, in politics and in sport. women are genuinely liberated and in control of their destinies. part of this i think is a genuinely enlightened attitude but part of it is legislative. for example, there are much better maternity leave conditions and flexible time regulations for new parents - women AND men. part of the big struggle professionally for many women my age [I am 28] is the worry that having children will put the brakes on their career, and with good reason when employers aren't forced to retain their staff. and giving men paternity leave levels the playing field and lightens the load re: individual workers.
But, in what is effectively a capitalist country, I cannot see leaders in business in the UK allowing the status quo to be challenged more than it is.
Posted by: Reda Maher | 20 October 2007 at 01:45 PM
Thanks for the question Paul. I think the phrase is Reda Maher's comment above about women being in control of their destinies sums up for me quite well the kind of equality I'd like to see. I'd like to be able to pursue the things I want to without having to conform to someone else's agenda concerning who or what I should be as a woman. I'm not a big fan of feminism because it just seems to give me another set of attributes to conform to. I guess what I value is being able to make choices over my own life, rather than having society decide that because I am a woman I should be a certain way.
How this fits in with Christianity I don't really know. Jesus calls us to live more like Him to live for one another not our own needs. But I guess there's a need for love and respect of both genders, and to see that both male and female are created in God's image and we have things to learn from each other and to offer each other.
Posted by: Kamsin | 21 October 2007 at 05:23 PM
Thanks guys.
On Reda and Kamsin's comments - I think what Kamsin said there "Jesus calls us to live more like Him to live for one another not our own needs" is the biggest challenge. Part of the 'feminist' connotations and many post-modern attitudes which I think has seeped into Christianity in the west today is the 'it's all about me' our rights. our choices. our needs. look out for number one.
Perhaps what is needed is the space to be ourselves. The space to be able to follow God. And a change of attitude. We've now got all these 'rights' and we want to be in control. And we shouldn't be in control...but neither should any other human being (If that makes any sense??)
Are there ways in which as church we can be an example of equality, encouragement and as Kamsin says 'learn from each other and offer to each other'...?
Posted by: Laura Anne | 21 October 2007 at 11:53 PM
Thanks Reda for stopping by and your thoughtful contribution to the conversation. It is a good point about not beating ourselves up too much but also not reasting on our laurels - although as you highlight it comes with a cost attached to it, one which we as a country may not want to pay compared with the price tag of the status quo..?
Posted by: Paul | 25 October 2007 at 03:49 PM
Thanks Kamsin, yes i think remembering that we are jointly created in God's image is an important part of equality - we are not complete without each other and the contributions we bring - in that maybe roles are up for grabs depending on abilities, talents, passions etc.
I also like the fact that we are created in the image of the tri-une God - therefore learning to exist as God does in a community which is other centred, where no one member hugs centre stage but instead invites us to consider the others before themselves...
Posted by: Paul | 25 October 2007 at 03:52 PM
thanks Laura Anne, your post reminds me of St Paul and his stance that if we all receive equal love, treatment, call, mission from Jesus then how dare any of us treat each other less than jesus does. there can be no division based on gender, race, class etc because jesus does not allow for such division, in christ we are all equal
Posted by: Paul Mayers | 25 October 2007 at 09:28 PM
I've been meaning to reply to this post because the questions raised are ones we frequently discuss in our household. However, life being what it is, I can at this point only offer up notes,
- other than sermons I've preached (or commissioned), I've never heard a preacher expressly address domestic violence.
- whilst it's clear that there are some dysfunctional ideas about beauty being peddled in the marketplace, this kind of advertising would have no traction if it did not test so well. People may claim that they prefer natural looks and more generous body shapes, but when it comes to testing of ads, consumers respond to more rarified and aspirational looks and shapes.
- the internet and culture of "free" is rampaging through the conventional porn industry in more devastaing ways than it did to the music industry. Whilst we migh applaud the financial cost to the exisiting porn czars the reality is that the industry is only going to become more exploitative and unregulated.
- we almost never hear mention of the near-total absence of women in senior management in our churches. Generally speaking women find it hard to find female mentors with experience at executive and board level, but for Christian women looking for role-models it is pretty well impossible.
Posted by: fernando | 29 October 2007 at 06:31 AM
Thanks F, you make some compelling points which help address the question of the perpetuation of injustice. We have talked before about action/what we do being the true reflection of what we believe so have you got any thoughts on how these things can be tackled? Do you know who is already tackling these areas who's shoulder we can put to their efforts?
Posted by: Paul | 31 October 2007 at 03:10 PM
Of those four issues, I've seen some groups address domestic violence (the Baptist Social Issues committees in Australia, like NSW and Victoria) and lots of churches help out in specific cases, even if it does not get publicity. There's also a fair bit of traction on the porn issue via the side-door question of human trafficking. It seems lots and lots of people are trying to tackle the porn issue, but really its a huge consequence of internet technology.
On the consumerism question, there seems to be nothing; probably because taking the cheap shots at advertising are so much easier than doing the deeper thinking about how we create the advertising we see through consumer choice.
The women question is even thornier, since I'm not convinced there are really that many ministers, even those who favour women in ministry, who really believe women should be in high leadership roles in society. It comes back to views about families should be organised and the sacrifices women should make in order for men to succeed. Interestingly, the one group that historically has done a good job of training women for leadership outside the church is the Girl's Brigade...
Posted by: fernando | 01 November 2007 at 02:29 AM