Domination free communities: learning to live other centred shared lives?

The very nature of God is both communal and other centred - God is in eternal community of one nature/will in three persons.  They do not not try and hog the stage for themselves but instead turn the spotlight on each other.  There is no hierarchy, there is no ego, there is no fear, there is no dominance - there is mutual acceptance, delight, laughter, creativity as each one bows to the other and loves to see the other lifted up.

I am going to leave the last few posts with their theme of Walter Wink's dominance free order with a final reflection of how we as christian communities can live out something of our future and of our past - in asking you to imagine with me what it would be like to be communities where we could be open to each other, we could live in a way where it was other centred - not stuck on the huaraches and domination systems that we as humans have created out of fear, the need to control and to be controlled - but how we were created in the beginning - in the image of this tri-une fear free other focused God and how it will be at the end when we receive our fully restored humanity in bodily form back and liberated, dominion-free,  life back again.

I am not sure I can imagine this myself, or think that clearly - if this piece is on community and taking the example of sex and sexuality as to how we can live other centred lives - than i am going to need your help.  Otherwise it becomes either just my wishful thinking or a new system of dominance that is the 'right' way we all have to conform too.

We all have a sexual nature

In my last post on christian sexuality, Molls made some very thoughtful generously said comments which made me think about our sexuality and how as communities we express that amongst each other.  Whether it is heterosexuality or homosexuality and the variations of expressions of sex, emotion, thought, domination filled or free, part of broken humanity or not than i would say it feels like to us who are going through it that this is our nature - and whether that is genetic or not from my own experience of my sexuality i would say it becomes 'nature,' it takes on who we are/feel and therefore i think we as communities need to get beyond that point.

Another way of approaching this is for me to say ok this happens but is it ok, or is it the best?  And if we are saying there is something better which might involve say not practising my homosexuality by having sex how much are we prepared to be communities where:

a) we can all share our sexual issues in an accepting way knowing that we need each other and God to help; and

b) am i prepared to give up some/all of my rights/freedoms -to be other centred rather than self centred?

For example: Cherith Fee-Nordling has suggested that maybe if i am a single christian maybe what i have to do is to give up what it is that i am asking my gay friend to give up and not get married, or indeed have sex, bur instead dedicating our lives to support each other gay/straight to live this out together- nd with all else that it might also cost us in terms of career, where we live etc...

I think too often we heterosexual christians sound like:

a) we are better morally because of our sexual orientation; and

b) that because we're straight have a right to sex and you because you're gay don't have that right? [Is it just me or does the term 'straight' seem to apply a betterness to our morality just because we are attracted to the opposite sex to us?].

I look at my own life and ongoing sexuality confusion and think that i am at least if not more messed up, same as a large chunk of the world, and if the rest of that chunk isn't messed up about sex they are messed up about something else.

Jesus has a sexual nature

I also look at Jesus, as a man who has a fully human male has a penis which works and therefore how he must have chosen celibacy because he was other centred: he was obedient to the father and it wouldn't have been loving to drag a wife into what he had to do.   

The film, the 40 yr old virgin, captured something of how strange this is in our sex focused culture but it must have also been very strange in Jesus time too - with its Hebraic expectations of family - how Jesus must have faced questions about his choice of staying single, how he must have faced pressure to get married, and be misunderstood about why he wasn't - after all a wild prophet like John might be able to get away with it but the village carpenter what was his excuse?  Am I am sure it was not because there weren't women who Jesus was attracted too - but somehow when he saw them and felt his own humanity stir in that moment he gave them back their humanity and refused to treat them as sex objects but instead saw their beauty as part of the reflected glory of his Father as fellow image bearers of God.   Jesus must therefore understands the emotions and consequences of making choices about our sexual expression.

How Jesus must have faced choices all the time to give life/humanity back to people rather than treat them as sex objects/means of gratification and therefore has not only been to the no sex place but understands sexual feelings.  But also how he is for the other, how maybe gay or straight, male or female we need to learn to be affirming and appreciative of each other rather than so scared of not being able to keep it in our pants? 

Can we learn to be honest and open about our feelings?  Are we gonna live in an environment where we are scared about falling sexually that we can no longer relate to the opposite sex?  Or an environment where we can share and confess our sexual feelings and learn to give each other our humanity back - not flirt for affection or need sex to make us feel good about ourselves but live in communities where we feel good cos we are loved, where it is normal for us to appreciate each other and the image of God that we each reflect in personality and our bodies?

Can we walk this out as communities in the the light?

I mean writing all this sounds weird - it makes me feel way uncomfortable cos i have been taught that once married its all about building barricades, about being careful, about not mixing with the opposite sex - all my worries kick in and i go man is this not asking for trouble?

Maybe another way to think about it is trouble is already there?  Temptation is already there but cos we keep it hidden and in the dark it just goes on its merry way.  Maybe we need to bring it out into the light?  Maybe we need to to think about how as communities we need each other?  How married people aren't better or single people people aren't better but that we all need each other and can learn from each other and help each other to reflect God to each other and affirm and care for each other.

Jesus said it was for our love for each other not our fear people would know that God was real.  If we practise being for each other in the same way the trinity practise being for each other - where it becomes not about me and my rights but about mutually living for each other then maybe we'll have something that is not just an argument based on reason but a way of life that encompasses love and experiences the Spirit at work amongst us, shaping us more like that?

What do you think?

I think what I am asking is:

• how can we do this? 
• what would it look like to live other centre lives not just asking people to give something up but asking what can i give up to help them?
• would you change your views on homosexuality if it meant you being prepared to surrender your own sex life and live with them as a friend and companion who together shared a life of celibacy and its related struggles?
• do you feel weird about men and women as the joint image bearers of a communal other centred God finding ways to affirm and share each other and be for each other?
• what scares you?  excites you?
• do you think that if we do something we'll be at least starting to bring light and life and if we do nothing all the things we are afraid of will still continue to happen but they'll be some body else's problem?

Comments

[Geoff]

Wow Paul, I'm both inspired and confronted. That's a big cost!
"would you change your views on homosexuality if it meant you being prepared to surrender your own sex life and live with them as a friend and companion who together shared a life of celibacy and its related struggles?" I'm not sure that I'm at a point in my life where I could say yes to that, but I'm convinced that it's a realistic call to understanding the cost of real discipleship. Thanks for disturbing me like that!

[David]

Holy Carp, Batman!
That's a great post.

That we need to move beyond whether homosexuality is 'nature' because it becomes nature anyway is great insight.

To sum up something I heard yesterday; why are we making moral judgements and spending air time throwing bombs at the Gay/Lesbian community, when 800 MILLION people are living in abject poverty?
I'm guessing here, but I would say a high percentage of them don't give a F*%$ on how we debate on who sleeps with who, but would rather just get some medicine and food.

This is an issue that needs to be discussed - and I love what you've been saying Paul - but maybe we should spend our lobbying money and our airtime over the TV and radio, doing something closer to the heart of God. Let the sexual debate of the ages, be discussed, debated, and argued. But let us put it in perspective and hear how God would rather have us spend our time and money.

Paul, you are very well spoken, and I think if more of use approached this importnant issue like you, we could move past it (so to speak) and begin reaching people who desperately need Jesus...and food.

Keep up the good work, I'm gleaning a lot and being challenged in a great way!

[Kamsin]

I like the idea that remaining single and celibate is actually a way of serving others and of respecting others humanity. The idea of choosing not to have sex is certainly one which seems very alien to our society. I read on a blog recently something similar to what you say about Jesus and how strange it would have been for him not to marry in Biblical times. That person drew the conclusion that Da Vinci code type theories that Jesus did in fact marry, was the only logical conclusion based on society in Jesus day. But like you say, it's just as true, if not more so, in our day that it is hard, if not impossible to accept that Jesus didn't take a wife.

Anyway, to change tack slightly, I was reminded of something I heard at a weekend conference a while back, and it was a while back so I may be mis-remembering slightly. But I think the basic idea was that sexual intimacy was designed to reflect intimacy with God. I think it revolved around the idea of being "known" by God. It is certainly a potent thing to play with. But I wonder if maybe the root cause of much of the sexual behaviour (casual sex, multiple partners etc.) which 21st century society seems to celebrate, is in fact spiritual. In fact I'm certain that it is, that people are trying to fill the need to be known intimately by God through their sexuality. So perhaps by focusing on the physical act rather than what's going on spiritually can only lead to a misuse of sexuality and people who are messed up and confused, or just kind of empty. This maybe doesn't answer your questions as such, or relate specifically to the issue of homosexuality, so sorry about that! But this was what came to mind as I was reading your post!

[Molly]

Lots to chew on, here, Paul. I'm thinking...will reply later, when some of these rocks rolling around in my head are a little more polished. Very good post, though, and thanks.

[Paul]

Geoff, always a pleasure to share my disturbance. I think that this radical other centredness has got to become more part of my faith expression - which is hard cos i'm at heart a selfish git. That's why i think a community setting is so important to keep that challenge present - at what point do we say is going far enough and can we challenge each other to look at our own lives, barriers, fears etc first?

And i guess my flip side to the Q is that if i am not prepared to change should i expect anyone to listen to me asking them to change? Maybe i need to ask the Q more what can i do to help not what you can do to change? Hmmm any thoughts?

[Paul]

great balls of cotton fluff, revolution boy!

Thanks David, if only a blog was a cartoon strip, now that would be so cool when we could insert our own little story boards for posts/comments into the overaching series.

Right must focus - yes you are absolutely right - it's another reason we need community to call us both to our journies inward and outward and serving the lost, last and least is central - in fact if and when i get to process some of the stuff around my course on the trinity into my posting life it will be a key theme.

I think if we are talking about other centredness as a mark of God and something as image bearers we therefore reflect then how can we not be for those who have less, who suffer, who are not equal in the fellowship of the world but who are invited by God to be equal with us in the fellowship of God - we want them says God to be with us - not just their souls, but their clothed, fed, protected, cared for bodies...

God is all for restoring our full humanity - we don't just get our life back we get the promise of our bodies back - renewed and transformed - so yeah, I'm with you David.

I would say lets not move past it, cos i don't think we as humanity can move past it but i'd add that let's move through it, let's share it as a community but let's share our food, our clothes, our money, our time, our love...

Let's keep pushing this for the other boat out as far as we think we can and see what happens..?

What do you think?

[Paul]

thanks Kamsin - yes that is powerful point about sex and intimacy - i think so often it is because we have a need, a desire to feel intimacy and in many ways the closest that gets is in sex, 2 become 1, seperate but connected, intimate but distinct in the same way that the trinity are distinct but the same - not to mention the emotional/spiritual/phyisical/mental high of sex.

Sex is such a powerful connection, it can say many different things: i am loved, accepted, useful, wanted, have a purpose, completed, released and so on.

I think my Q is that we often only know that sort of intimacy/connection in a sexual sense. How as an other-centred community do we give each other that sort of deep honest affirmation and connection but without sex? Yeah its gonna throw up sexual issues cos we have sexualised those feelings but i think we need as communities to think about not how do i keep myself sexually pure/protected by avoiding people of the opposite sex but how can we be honest about, how can we be affirming, how can we wean ourselves off the sex reward cycle and just talk about it openly in the light? Rather than feeling like no one loves me, or turning each other into secret lust/fantasy objects? etc.

I think an essential part of that is learning to be worshipping community of God - to redirect sex from becoming an act of worship/intimacy.

Hmmm what do you think?

[Paul]

thanks Molls, looking forward to your rock and roll thoughts :)

[Kamsin]

I think you've come to the conclusion which I was coming around to. That we need to aim to seek first God's kingdom and be in right relationship with Him, finding our need for acceptance and intimacy in Him first of all. Attempting to control inappropriate thoughts and behaviours alone will just leave an empty hole and lead to failure.

[pistol pete]

You've really nailed the issue here in a way I've not seen done before. Today in my blog, I tried to do a brief spoof "I'm OK, You're All Gay" that also encourages us to look at ourselves and have a sense of humor and perspective. I would love your input.

[Paul]

thanks kamsin - i watched a programme on sex addiction and one of the most profound things was that a lot of the therapists said was that it wasn't about sex but about issues with intimacy...

[Paul]

Pete, sounds great, thanks, i'll come and check it out :)

[drliz]

As a single (heterosexual) Christian woman, I've already surrendered my own sex life and I am committed to remaining celibate until marriage. Thus, I'm almost 40 and I'm still a virgin. This isn't what I wanted for my life. I'm not "gifted" with singleness. I have a very healthy sex drive (I wish it were not so strong, believe me!).

What you seem to assume is that while someone with homosexual feelings cannot act on their sexual desires (because to do so would be a sin), all heterosexuals can act on their sexual desires (eventually) by getting married.

Um, just because I want to get married does not mean I will get married. Just because I CAN legally marry does not mean there is someone I want to marry that wants to marry me as well. So, is my situation somehow easier than that of the person with homosexual tendencies?

I can't follow through on my sexual desires either. So should my friends volunteer to remain unmarried so they can be there for me in the struggles of celibacy? Or should they have done so, because all are married now so the question is moot. But if each had not married, the world would be short a few precious children (so I could feel less alone in my struggle -which sounds pretty selfish).

[Paul]

Hi Dr Liz, thanks for stopping by. I appreciate what you are sharing and saying, this has real practicalities and the bottom line is that everyone finds the whole sexual expression side hard, whether its about being celibate or about being monogomous.

I am not trying to make any kinda law out of this, that wouldn't work. What i am trying to suggest is that maybe people who like to pronounce who can and can't have sex whilst getting their end away can not be the most helpful experience - it adds an air of well i can/you can't.

What i was suggesting is that we begin to explore just the tip of what it means to live for the other it would see things like the example i quoted with actual commitment to n0n-sexual life with the other as much as commitment of people who are married has a sexual element.

I could have picked choice of car, or clothes or food, or having a really great family life and openin that up to others, or anything else.

Part of this post was to start thinking and exploring some of this, to get excited about being other centred and what that might mean in practice, on the ground.

I'm not gonna pronounce what people should or shouldn't do but i'll ask you a Q: what would help you the most? What could the community around you do to support you, care for you, help you with your sex drive and your commitment to being celibate?

[drliz]

So then I guess that Catholic priests would have more moral authority in saying who can and who can't because they can't. BTW- just because there are priests who hide habitual sexual sins (both hetero and homo in nature) and egregious sexual abuse does not mean that there are not others who maintain their celibacy. And the official position is that "they can't", which is consistent with the church's official position on homosexual behavior. (I'm not Catholic, btw, just pointing out a conservative religious position held by a group who believe that they themselves should be celibate for the greater calling of God.)

So, what's helpful to me? Well, first, I've learned from married women and men that sexual temptations like masturbation and sexual fantasy do not end with marriage. I realize that not everyone considers mb sinful, but it is certainly hard to get around the sinfulness of the sexual fantasies and images we tend to bring to mind (male or female, cause yes girls do struggle with this too) in doing so. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a mb debate, because I know of no serious conservative Christian leaders who hold on to the silly 50's myths like "you'll go blind". Some even think that (conservative) Christians focus too much on mb. Focus on the Family's Dr. Dobson, for example, advises parents not to make such a big deal out of it. (Even though I think it is a sin, I do agree with that advice!)

I don't believe that sexual temptation necessarily decreases just because you happen to have the freedom to have sex with your spouse. First, one may be tempted to mb because it seems easier than the effort required for sex with another person (no asking how was your day or remembering to compliment the other person, for example).

And of course, married people also get tempted to have sex with someone who is not their spouse. Maybe because they feel they deserve variety, or they are angry at their spouse and want revenge, or they feel flattered by someone else and rejected or humiliated by their spouse.

BTW - your comment box is really small and it's getting hard to follow the long, narrow column of thoughts I'm typing! I may add more later...

One more thought ... I certainly agree we should not be self-centered in our thinking. But is it really any better to be other-centered in our thinking? The ideal is not self or other, it is GOD-centered. Yes, we should help our brothers and sisters to not sin. But do we do this by redefining sin to make it seem less offensive to others? Sin is first and foremost an offense against God. In Psalm 51, when David is repenting of his adultery with Bathsheeba and the murder of her husband, he repents to God, in verse 4, "Against you, and you alone, have I sinned; I have done what is evil in your sight. You will be proved right in what you say, and your judgment against me is just."

[Paul]

Thanks Dr Liz for your thoughtful response. And i apologise for the size of the comment box too!

I appreciate what you are saying about the catholic position on celibacy - i think to make it a rule is a mistake, which is the position of the catholic church and to my mind is a significant reason why so much covered up sexuality takes places.

I think the Holy Spirit can inspire us in multiple ways to be for the other and indeed i think that is a right expression of our different personalities, gifts etc. It cannot be rule/law base as that destroys the motivation to "i have too" not "i want to do this out of a giving love." Love, as God demonstrates is freely offered - there is no compulsion or coercion - for God his nature is love and it's expression is in this other centredness. God for me is not insecure or lonely but exists in loving communion.

I appreciate your honesty in reflecting on the struggles of an active sex drive and a commitment to celibacy and how marriage is not a pancea. My story would agree with you and i have grown a lot in learning to not make sex about me and my wants but part of a love that is based on giving not receiving. In fact this is something i am still learning and for me again comes down to this life of other centred focus - of dying to self, of laying down my rights and following Jesus in a life of compassionate, passionate, loving service.

Masturbation is a subject in and of its own right - for me i can find it sometimes helpful in the short term but usually unhelpful in the long term as it brings the focus back on to me - it ultimately makes me more selfish. Others i know disagree but again it is not so much a law for me and i can accept that some people find it helpful.

My recent post on the trinity picks up i think your last point around other centredness - i think you are right about the God centring but my reflection is that God is by nature other centred and exists not as a singularity but in a mysterious communion where each member of the trinity is for the other. If we are created in the image of this tri-une God then i think we will reflect and need to reflect God - as God restores and reconnects us I think we should expect to grow in being for the other. In part i think that's why Jesus put down a marker that it is in the radical giving love for each other as a church community that people will recognise the other-centred tri-une God. The fact that we exist alongside people in church who are own intentional interests would most of the time avoid to me can only be a good thing about learning to practice this other focussed way of living.

What do you think?