One Kingdom but many outposts/expressions: the confusing world of church...

Jason has written this post on his view on the reality of people liking Jesus but not the church and comments:

"We still like binary opposites, of Jesus to the church but without the church there is no Jesus, and without Jesus there is no church..."

And searchingforsomething shared these honest reflections about her experience with church:

"I lost confidence in the church and I lost confidence in me and I lost faith in that there could be a God whose son said "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples - that you love one another" I felt unloved and unloving and felt this proof that there could be no God.

Along the way, others did get up and move on and choose other churches that better suited their needs and personalities. I kind of admired them, but at the same time found this lacking authenticity and at odds with what I read about the early church."

The kingdom of God is bigger than [my] church

Both Jason and searchingforsomething have made me think that the church has its limitations/falibilities - there is no such thing as a perfect church and altho we often talk about how this style or practice would be a step in that direction what happens is just a fresh set of issues to work through.  Church can often look like the problem, the barrier, the bunch of people who really aren't that loveable or good at loving. 

On the other hand I think it would be a mistake to write off church - show me a group of people who are loving and loveable - ok family [well mine as its moments]? friends [yes but how deep does that love/commitment go]? Maybe that's just me though...

I wonder though how often I get church confused for the kingdom of God - for instance Jesus invites us into this thing called the kingdom of God- to experience and to partake in a life of the wish/will/dream of God - his best for us and our best for him [as the line in my friend Duncan's excellent song on the Lord's prayer goes].  I think after awhile we take that invitation to me to attend MY church and do the christian life in the way I do.  I can make the kingdom of God about my experiences, beliefs, feelings most easily by reducing it to a limited thing called my church...

And of course is my church is the full expression of the kingdom of God then it makes me focus on my church as right, people who leave my church or going to a vastly inferior and possibly even a fake version.  It is far too easy to get paroichal about these matters and conclude that if i can't fit in at my most local church then maybe i don't fit into the kingdom of God?

But the church is part of the life of the kingdom of God

But what if we have the vibrancy and growth of the church into so many forms of church to demonstrate something of the vitality and creativity of life in the kingdom of God?  What if whilst aspiring to love people sometimes I need to be less tribal/parochial/local and say my local church is not the limitation of the kingdom of God, maybe i belong somewhere else?

In my changing of church in the past there have been elements of me - things that i liked but there have also been elements of God - things that God has used to grow me and change me - frustrations have been hard but growing experience for me - eventually it led to change but the process was one where i had to learn a lot about humility and practice the kingdom life of generousity, forgiving and loving rather than waiting around for people to practice it on me.  It has taught me a lot about examining myself first and how often i am wrong as well as also about not being idealistic about church

I think there has to be a balance - it's like my analogy with spiritual disciplines and being able to run a mile but not a marathon - i can't love these peole so maybe i need to go somewhere i can learn to love - a different climate where i will thrive and learn more about love so i can love and be loved?  Even in a more suitable climate i guarantee there will people I will find hard to love and people who find it hard to love us - but the life of the kingdom is bigger but life in the church helps us grow bigger, helps us practice together.

Learning together...

So what do you think:

• have you had difficulty reconciling your church experience with the kingdom one?
• if you have, what did you do about it?
• when you changed is your experience like mine which has had elements a church for me change or was it a church for God change?
• has changing church environment helped you grow into the bigger life of the kingdom - how has that happened?

Comments

[seekingsomething]

Thanks for this post, Paul. I am just of away for the weekend but I will come back on Monday when I can do justice to your questions with my thoughts.....

[David]

I'm taking a leap and assuming here, but I think those who say the love Jesus but don't like the church, are speaking of the institution of church. After all, are we not part of the church when we choose to follow Jesus whether we attend an institution or not?
Maybe a better term is 'churchianity'.

Church in it's basic form, means a gathering. Most Jesus followers are not hermits or lone rangers, but gather together in some form, even if it's online, in a house, at a pub, etc. Where they gather is where 'church' is and that's as much of a church as four walls, are sign out front, and a steeple. It might be more so.

So, just a thought, but maybe we need to loosen our definitian of church a bit more.

[Paul]

Thanks seeking - i hope you have a great weekend!!

[Paul]

That's a good point David - you are no doubt right that in many cases people object to the institution of church - whether out of general principle or their own personal experience.

I am no so sure how many of those same people are interested in following Jesus even if they claim to like him - Barna would claim that those who were previously in church who leave are doing so to start a revolution of something different? I wonder whether most of them really are or they have just been converted to a different form of faith where they no longer need church and are giving that church space over to what they want to do instead...

You might see it differently so how would you like the term church to be loosened up?

That only deals with christians, there is a wider aspect which is people who reject the church but still profess to like the idea of Jesus - but not enough to turn it into action...

[seekingsomething]

So what do you think:

have you had difficulty reconciling your church experience with the kingdom one? if you have, what did you do about it?

Yes, yes, yes. And so I left the Church, left the Kingdom, and am left, 10 years on, musing alone (and now with you) about what happened back then and whether there was ever really a 'baby' in the foul, dirty 'bathwater' that I threw away....)

when you changed is your experience like mine which has had elements a church for me change or was it a church for God change?
has changing church environment helped you grow into the bigger life of the kingdom - how has that happened?

I didn't change church, I changed beliefs and changed lifestyles. It was a change for me as a result of losing sight of God.

I am challenged by what you say though. Challenged to think less selfishly, to think about forgiving and moving on and possibly re-engaging with Chursh and God.

It's so hard though. I live in a small town with a few traditional churches and so what would I change to? Where would I get the conversations I need? It's so hard to know where to begin again....

[Paul]

Hi something, i hope you had a good wk end away.

I'm glad you feel safe to muse/reflect here - i don't think there is an easy answer but your image reminds me of panning for gold, sometimes its about being in the dirty water trying to sieve it looking for nuggets - there's probably some good stuff in their and plenty of crap too.

My experience looking back is that there is some great stuff that God has recycled and i'm grateful for - i think i had bible stuffed into me until i was sick but now i really appreciate that - so you might have things like that?

Here's another Q in this nugget search, are there anytimes looking back when you felt God in your church, when you had even a moment of seeing the full wide vista of the kingdom?

Again I'm not trying to give you a solution - tempting as it is for me as a man, lol. Have you read Brian McLaren's finding faith? I read it a few yrs back when i had just deconstructed all my beliefs in God to nothing and didn't know how to believe in anything anymore - it was a book that didn't treat me like an idiot, didn't make me feel that i had to abandon thinking, didn't try and simplify or patronise me but also encouraged me to think about a good sort of faith and how following Jesus rather than any other God might be the way.

I think maybe you have begun again, your chosen name reminds me again of Jesus words to seek first the kingdom of God [rather than just a church]... maybe websites like this one and others like it, or even more intriguing perhaps your own one where you can muse about the Qs that you want to will help with your conversations? I also think that the kingdom of God is still enveloping and invading churches, it requires a journey into generousity and humility to be open to God at work even in the most dead of places - but you never know you might wander into one of the churches in your town one sunday and find yourself sitting down in a pew next to Jesus, who smiles at you, gives you a wink and says welcome back...