Jobs for the boys - a question of whether the trinity is an all male affair?

I mentioned here that I had written up my notes on the Deep Church lecture series, the first of which was on the Holy Spirit.  I found the following exchange that happened in the Q&A session, most illuminating of both asking hard questions and how theology helps answer them:

Q: Is the female noun for ruarch in the OT evidence that the Spirit is female?

A: Andrew does not think that this supports the fact the Spirit is feminine - for him all it does is somehow turn the Spirit into the the weakest of the 3 members of the trinity and gives a supportive role instead. Andew made it clear that there is no gender in the Trinity apart from the eternal risen Christ. We may call God, the Father, but he is not male. For Andrew God is greater than gender roles, he has no idea why God would choose to be born as a man, but Jesus leads us into a relationship with the Father and the Spirit and neither of those are males.

The wrong that goes on in human kind is because of sin and therefore women get a bad deal because men treat them badly not because of the doctrine of the trinity.

So what do you think?

Comments

[blind beggar]

God is a non-corporeal spiritual being, therefore it is impossible for God to have gender. It is not surprising that “he” should choose to reveal himself using gender specific language and anthropomorphisms to help us understand who God is. He contextualized the story in terms we can comprehend and identify with. Why male language instead of female? That is beyond my understanding :-).

The Holy Spirit appears to be describe least using gender specific terms, so maybe that is a truer reflection of God – gender neutral.

[Paul]

I agree Rick, it seems God is beyond gender altho the thought of the eternally risen Jesus still being a man is an interesting one, never really thought of gender in heaven...

I thought it was interesting that Andrew said to try and feminise the trinity doesn't work but then to exploit it as an all male closed shop and therefore women are on some secondary level misses the point.

Apparently tho in French and Russian the trinity is a female noun - so just goes to show the limitations of language - or at least english :)

[blind beggar]

"...to exploit it as an all male closed shop and therefore women are on some secondary level misses the point."

Boy, you are spot on here.

How interesting about the French and Russian language. I wonder what this tells us about their culture (if anything) that the word for trinity would develop as a female noun.

Language is so limiting. Eugene Peterson says something like, every translation of the bible is both messianic and betrayal. It is messianic because it brings redemption nearer. It is betrayal because a translation is inherently a mistranslation. Each language is unique.

[molly]

Boy, I gotta say that anyone saying the Holy Spirit is the *weaker* member of the Trinity...? I don't know, that's just something that would make me nervous. I mean, the Trinity is something so difficult to comprehend as it is, to start saying that one of them is weaker, and in particular because of a feminine noun?

What if God made sure to use the feminine form for Himself as the Spirit *because* He wanted to show that the feminine is just as much an image-bearer of God as the masculine--because of our tendancy to consider the feminine weak, what if He chose to use it as a descriptive word about Himself, SO THAT we might know that female is not a lesser than...?

Personally, I think it is fascinating to note the correlation between those groups who believe that females are lesser AND who also think that the Holy Spirit is lesser. Most that I've been involved with (or read about) believe both of those things, and 99% of them are cessationalists (and the Holy Spirit is rarely ever spoken of).

It's all very interesting, really. Just makes a person wonder. *shrugs* How much we lose out on by always trying to decide who's the most important based on our own specifications of what merits higher rank... ?

Btw, I have no problem with rank, or the concept of it. If there is rank in the Trinity, then great---I'll follow that (though I have to say I've always been *taught* permenant rank order in the Trinity, but that there are good arguments against permanent rank order, including those made by Augustine, Calvin, etc), and if there isn't, then I'll follow that! I'm easy, see?

I guess what I have a problem with is one being considered "lesser." I have a real problem when rank equals value, etc, and though we often give lip service to rank NOT meaning lesser value, in reality, our practice is MUCH different.

[Paul]

Thank you Molls - you are wise and thoughtful and therefore a great teacher. I think that this sort of conversation is precisely the reason we need women who are able to help teach men such insights there is much to learn (well I at least have much to learn)...

I took Andrew's comments to mean the danger of applying the limitations of language as descriptors of the trinity, which for at least 2/3 are beyond gender. But then again that is the reality that we live within and is the reason that the bible points out God's character in ways that are self revealing and yet why we can never fully know God through the bible or indeed any other revelation method - we are limited folk looking into a dark glass - if that was Paul's reality why should I expect it to be much different for me - other than i have the wonderful heritage of 2,000 yrs of christian thought/reflection/revelation to be grateful for...

[dh]

I think all three are seperate but equal and that all this "overseperation" going on is dangerous. The fact is that they are all three in one. The closestexample being three forms of water.

[John Smulo]

Interesting question Paul! I'm with the discussion above, and don't have much to add, other than to say it concerns me that many appear to literally believe God is a bloke--okay, maybe not literally. But sadly there's seems to be a lot of confusion here.

[Paul]

Thanks John - i know what you mean, the Q I ask is why do we get hung up on the gender of God - usually as we are trying to use that gender for something - my guess the elevating of one gender [male] over anoter and co-opting God to back it up...

The co-opting approach is nothing new, everyone wants God on their side to back up their actions but most of us seldom bother to ask God if he minds...