Wild at something...

Paul takes wild to heart far too seriously

A chap called John Eldredge wrote a book to explain his take on men and God called 'Wild at Heart.'  I've read the book and found it to be one of the most helpful reads on giving men permission to be the men they were created to be in God's image, rather than wussed out limp wimps pressed out of a cookie cutter cuddly lame tame church or macho misogynist moulded in the misguided image of a man's man...

In summary the book explores Eldridge's take on God defined masculinity, which, to quote from his website, is that:

"there is something fierce, passionate, and wild in the heart of every man.   That is how he bears the image of God.  And the reason most men "live lives of quiet desperation" (Thoreau) is because men have been told that the reason God put them on earth is to be a good boy.  To be nice. But every man longs for a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue."

Anywho my like of the book has got me involved in a great discussion here on the conversation at the edge blog (some of you may be aware of off the map and their ebay atheist project which i blogged about a few times earlier this year, well this is the spin off to allow the great conversations that were started to continue).

One of the points being made in the conversation is whether Eldridge is being sexist in saying that whilst men crave adventure (and by implication) that women don't... now I can't remember what he says from the book on this angle so I would be interested in hearing a female perspective if you've read wild at heart or indeed any of Eldridge's books - are they patronising or empowering for you as a woman?  And from any men who have read the book what's your take - helpful or hogwash?

In case you are wondering Eldridge has been also written a book on Godly women called Captivating. I have not read it but if you have please let me know what you think.  In summary though, again from his website:

"Most women think they have to settle for a life of efficiency and duty, chores and errands, striving to be the woman she feels she “ought” to be, but often feeling she has failed. The message of Captivating is this: the desires you had as a little girl and the longings you still feel as a woman – they are telling you of the life God meant you to live. He offers to come now as the Hero of your story, to restore your feminine heart and set you free as a truly alive woman. A woman who is captivating."

I'm not looking to defend Eldridge just real interested to hear your experiences and views... and since its not really my conversation feel free to go post them at the edge...

Comments

[marc]

The trouble is with many Christian men I have met is they are so dull and boring, in my old church no one would even go to the pub for fear of bursting into flames. Thankfully that's not the case in my current church and my freinds there.

I think one of the reasons is the 'being in the world but part of it' idea. This is where Christian men reject everything there is about being a normal man you don't drink, don't smoke, don't do this and that.

I have known Christian men that only have Christians men friends and don't mix with those who are not believers - it is so sadly insular..and I think you lose something when you retreat from the world and secularism, you lose a different view, a chance to interact with the world, to be the message of Christ in a normal everyday way.

For instance my friends talk about football as I talk about Church, they listen I listen. It is part of my life as a normal man, it is part of our culture and if we are to reach out to anyone we need to understand it...

[Matt]

I too have heard these suggestions of Eldridge's sexist views on this matter. However, having read Wild at Heart and Captivating, attended and Wild at Heart event and used a lot of the Ransomed Heart teaching including that on Marriage I can say I do not find this view to be supported. The basic core desires of men and woman are different, however that does not mean women don't like adventure. If that is the case, it would appear I have married a man. The core desires of the man and the woman are those things that reflect the uniqueness/character of God and are set deeply within us at the level of gender. It is true to say that many men would argue with some of the core desires that Eldridge says men have they do not conform to. I think it is important to look at them in the broad sense. Adventure does not just mean spending weeks in the Wilderness of the Rockies, their is adventure to be found in business, sport, marriage, kids - everywhere.
So what's my point. I believe what Eldridge has to say is great biblically sound teaching, although as will all things there is an element of correct interpretation -that is to say the message of Wild at Heart needs to be seen in its fullness, dipping in to the book can give you the wrong impression, just as extracting passages from the bible out of context leads to people justifying all sorts of madness. Secondly, Eldridge loves the outdoors, lives near the Rockies in Colorado so his experiences of adventure and battle focus around these things as they are his passions, but he is clear in pointing out that other men find their adventure and battle elsewhere.

[brad]

there's a pretty harsh review at the moment over at christianity today of 'captivating' which deals with a lot of these issues: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/008/25.60.html

[Paul]

Hi Matt, thanks for stopping by, good to hear from you and top thoughts... I love the "married a man" comment, i think you're spot on the sharing the adventure of life together... Good points on context too!!

What would you say was the impact on you of the books?

[Matt]

It strikes me that John is often taken out of contact, people did into his books and extract things without reading the context of it.

I also believe that there is a lot of spiritual opposition to the message being conveyed, as basically it is just the gospel.

I read the review of captivating that was linked by Brad and I would suggest that the author of the review had not even read captivating from cover to cover. It is the old story that now matter what is written from a newspaper quote to the bible people extract bits and apply their own interpritation to it.

For me and my wife the book(s) have changed my life in a way only God can. That is to say I have met with him through John's books and messages, not that I am elevating John to anything other than a rather short man with a funny beard! I have found myself at all point returning to the bible and spending time with God, for me I like John's language and I guess as I like the similar thing to him I find a certain connection, from that point I see how the man who finds his adventure in the corporate world may not connect as much. But then anything is possible for God.

I know that when we went to his conference my wife was very suspicious, as she had dipped into WAH and picked out certain things that seemed weird. At the end of the weekend we came away with the feeling that yes John is a very good speaker, he knows his stuff but far above anything else Jesus was glorified and we met with God. This has to be the true test of a message, who doe sit point to, who is reflect and what does it cost (i.e. where is the ££ going).

[Paul]

Hi Marc, great thoughts - why do you think so many christian men are "dull and boring" and maybe to summarise - so self safety conscious?

interesting conclusion on staying out of the world but how do you think men can keep out of/avoid a world that is already in them?

[marc]

I feel a lack empowerment for the male Christian was part of the problem in this particular church and there are several reasons for this:

1. I observed that some men jsut followed their wives lead at church. Men tended to know each other because their wives relationships not through sort out relationships.

2. There was very little in the way of male activities in the church with the majority of ministries running during the day by women whose husbands worked.

3. The attitude of the church was very middle class and if there were ‘men’s ministry’, in general it would cost a great deal of money (for example as Yachting holiday!). It was therefore unrealistic to expect many men who could not afford for their wives to stay at home and look after the children to be able to afford this type of thing.

4. The lack of any emphasis on community as a church was reflected to community within a church.

5. The church revolved around an American conservative model which basically ignores the culture and context that church is in.

"Interesting conclusion on staying out of the world but how do you think men can keep out of/avoid a world that is already in them?"

We could closet ourselves away (as I have observed only too often) of course, but that would not be following Christ’s example.

It would also be a grave mistake.

We need to understand our culture if we are to understand the message of Christ especially if we hope to communicate that in any meaningful way.

[Paul]

Mark,

I found your points around the church you were in very interesting. The church environment seemed to evolve more around women forming relationships rather than men forming relationships direct. A Yachting holiday, ok :)!!

One of the things I found in my last church was developing a culture whereby there was a core group of men who knew each other well and supported each other and we deliberately went out of our way to introduce ourselves and set up a series of social events to connect as men – curries, hikes , xboxing camping weekend away rather than going to the Monaco grand prix or Cannes :). It was just an excuse really to meet as men and get to know each other by doing things together - we ran it as a group of friends rather than a church sanctioned ministry with the ethos that most of the events were inclusive and suitable for men (rather than christian/non-christian etc). We did also have one Christian event in terms of a men’s day spent in a pub with a bit of teaching and a lot of eating and drinking thrown in.

Interestingly the women decided that they were missing out on something and decided to form a church sanctioned ministry which turned out to be monthly Saturday mornings of teaching on “girl” issues and maybe an optional lunch afterwards.

I contrast the 2 experiences not to say one is more right/wrong as the other but to suggest than the women recreated the church environment – except it went on for a longer time and had an exclusive feminine focus – and the men created something totally different from the church environment – even the teaching day was surrounded in food and beer out in a country pub with a suitably long lunch break :)

When we became “a men’s ministry” the teaching content increased but to about half the events and we also planned to do a day of community service - to contribute our strength and skills to something in the community which I thought was a very good thing.

In other words we wanted to be outward in our action as well as inward in building up friendships. We could also be more inclusive as rather than relying on word of mouth we had church mailing list etc.

I think there is a big fear for men, especially in evangelical circles, of the corrupting influence of the men – on the other hand most of my issues which I have struggled with such as anger, control, lust, emotional honesty, pride etc I have struggled wherever I am – just avoiding the “wrong” situations doesn’t necessarily help me – although it is probably a good idea for me to avoid a few places/situations out of wisdom :)

[marc]

'VCS Gentlemens club' of which I was the founder member plodded along but people don't seem that interested in doing stuff on a regular basis.

It was done just for fun, no teaching just a fun time and we have done other stuff for stag nights as well.

Even the term 'men's ministry' makes me cringe!! I imagine it dotted with lots of Christians who don't have a clue about the outside world or what normal people do anymore.

I know that's probably an unfair and rather untrue picture but it's the one I have come across through my years in church. So to me if you mention mens ministry...i'm off:¬)

There is a problem as far as I can see it, you have

1. a normal man
2. a Christian man

Somewhere along the line these two were separated. Normal man went off into the secular and Christian man went off into the church and never the two shall cross!!

What we need is 'normal Christians' these are people who understand and are part of society and yet have a strong faith that is second nature and seen by others as part of their life.

So the question is...are you a normal Christian?

[tim]

An interesting batch of quotes - I guess there will always be problems when someone shares with the world ideologies that have worked for them. Clearly, Mr Eldridge loves the outdoors and the Victorian institution of maidens, castles and adventure (ad perhaps attitudes to sex). I got the book as a present last Christmas, read the first chapter, couldn’t connect with anything he was saying – so I think it ended up in Oxfam.

Though I like outdoors and the connection I find there with God - I’ve never found the need for someone to point this out to me. Maybe he was just too patronising.

Enough said. It’s going to work for some people, and not for others. However, it’s good to wrestle with the issues to form well thought out conclusions, rather than being spoon fed from the pulpit or books.

Paul wrote an interesting post on JC’s blog - http://jasonclark.emergent-uk.org- re men feeling uninterested in the church. I’m thinking that the issues raised here and there are somewhat similar. I’m a man, I hate church and only go (at least bi-annually eh Paul?) to support her. I find it the most boring thing - apart from picking lint out of my navel - possible to do on a Sunday morning; another sermon to forget and a raft of songs so effusive, I can’t be bothered to stand up and mumble. As for men’s ministries, I agree, a truly cringe worthy experience. Why do we produce a false environment for men to get to know each other?

That’s my polemic over – I wish I knew what the alternatives were? If I did it wouldn’t make me rich, but I may avoid being part of the generation that will witnesses the demise of any useful kind of church in the west.

[marc]

Hi Tim

Mr eldridge is not my cup of tea, but some will like it - it will reinforce some cliches but thats life I suppose.

I too love the outdoors, Gods finger prints are all over it and I really pity those who can't see it, they are really missing something.

Now church I have been in truly boring churches but the one I am at now is different. I enjoy the sermon, it's thought provoking and can be challening, I like the community we have in our church. I do find sung worship difficult but I love playing it.

For me it's well worth getting out of bed on a sunday morning because I know I will see 'real' friends, those I see outside church or a church environment, Our pastor makes my brain work (then again Jason Clark is my pastor so maybe i'm fortunate) in general I enjoy my church life.

It has it's boring bits but hey nothing is perfect.

[marc]

Oops...and Tim have you looked at any of the Celtic Christianity stuff?

[Paul]

heh tim, lovin your post, you really know how to sing those blues and I really dig it about you!!

Good on you though for making it bi-annual, that's a challenge in and of itself - how do you love someone unconditionally and against things that you'd rather not do - so top modelling there!!

As for the answer, i think it resides in all of us rather than in just one of us and its worth having a search for, i for one am not that keen just to lie down and let life roll over me - if its the sunset of church in the west i intend to throw one hell of a dinner party :)

[Paul]

Marc - as for being a normal christian ummm i don't think there is such a thing - there are normative behaviours but for interpreting christ in terms of who/where/what I am i have changed so much in the last 20 odd yrs in some ways and none at all in others... that's one of the things i love about getting to know people - some of them are really pains in the ass and i struggle to have anything to do with them, some are real opposites to me and i love what that difference brings up, some are pretty similiar and some even don't like football... :)

[marc]

Don't get me going on the football thing..I would rather dip my head in jam and then insert it into a bees nest whilst hitting the side of it with a plank full of six inch nails...than watch football:¬)

I suppose what I mean by normal is that it is that when I became a Christian I changed but was still myself as opposed to some who seem to turn into some sort of alien who comes from another planet.

It's as if their personality has been sucked out of them and they become wishy washy and 'wet'.

Why does this happen?

[Paul]

Marc, i'll tell you what we'll chat over a pint on friday and you make the call on the normalness of me :)

As for 'wets' i think a lot of it comes down to personality, about fears of being honest, about having that kind of sweet gentle loveable soft shoes don't rock the boat encounters - a lot of these guys i find that its cos they haven't got a clue how to hang with guys or gals.

But then again i have worn amazing stripey jumpers and being equally clumsy and been chronoically inadept church lifer - i basically thought christianity was surpressing everything on the surface that was remotely manly even if on the inside i was one mixed up mess of horniness, frustration, anger etc

[Paul]

ps what sort of jam do you prefer?

[marc]

I'd say we've got a fair amount to chat over on friday...:¬) Should be fun..

Raspberry please!

[Tim]

Marc – never tried Celtic Christianity thing – but perhaps I should. It does seem a bit more holistic that the received western Christian idea.

Sermons are boring – why? I think even if the pastor were Jason Clark I’d still have disagreements - after all, sermons are opinions and I think any conclusion worth coming too would need to be resettled with. The sermon is a lecture aimed at the lowest common denominator in any congregation. It seems like a lot of effort to go to for something that only produces minimal results over time. How many things are done in church not because there’s a mandate from God, but rather because that’s the way we’ve always done it.?

But hell, who am I to say that the sermon as a weekly trial is redundant? Give me a few people and discussion and I think I’ll learn more in 20 mins that I have in 20 years of endless sermons. Harsh I know, but then this is my rant.