One for the road...

Chore-play...

Per a report in The Times this week - a study has revealed that married men who do housework are more likely to have happier and hornier wives...

So is the hoovering/dishes/dusting foreplay for you?

What do you think about feminism in the UK (christian or otherwise)?

Do you think in the UK that men and women are equal???

But first a youtube clip from our sponsors...

Some excellent thoughts on christian feminsts, kicked off by Geoff and Mak and Julie respond brilliantly! Now I confess i'm the wrong person to ask, being male, but i wonder what this looks like in the UK?

My observation living in London, working in an environment where women are treated as equals and a church tradition which is positive about women leaders means that my views might be rose tinted? After all I would consider myself a feminist in the sense of viewing woman as equals both in terms of my social values and my christian ones. But do my actions reflect my belief?

Growing equalities...

We seem to have a culture where men treat women as equals in public - such that previous courtesies based on perceived female weakness like holding open a door or offering a seat on public transport have fallen by the wayside [one casualty has been offering pregnant woman a seat on the tube in case it offends and the piloting of a baby on board badge by Transport for London]

In education girls outperform boys and there is question as to whether that is because girls are smarter or just the education system caters for them better (or see here).

In jobs the number of women who hold top positions is growing fast (although still a relatively low proportion: for example in running local authorities it is 1 in 4 who are wome, although this has doubled in 10 yrs and seems a trend set to continue).

In the media woman are portrayed as equal to men and seem to delight in out ladding the lads (all those swearing, drinking, shagging ladettes take a bow!). If that was a reaction to the lads culture of the 90s than the noughty girl is flaunting her independence and wealth like never before.

In advertising one of the most successful advertising campaigns of all time has been the Dove "real woman" marketing (from which the youtube clip above comes from). This has seen sales of Dove products treble as women embrace the message that beautiful is who they are not what they are supposed to be like.

Interestingly as well women seem to exploit the desire of men to objectify them as sex objects as a way to be famous, the rise of lads magazines and the number of women willing to be photographed almost naked is seem as almost ironic gesture, exploiting men in order to achieve fame and fortune and then laugh about it. Conversely the number of articles, magazines, images where men are posed as objects for women to use for their own advantage also seems to be on the rise.

In fact a report last year said that the new underclass was white teen boys.

Complacent to inequalities?

In a me first world where all seems well on the surface i wonder if it is allowing us to be complacent? My fear is that we are equal on the outside but are we merely being polite, forcing the issue out of sight rather than continue to actively address it?

For example:

• violence against women by men is very high;
• 20% of teen girls questioned in Scotland self harm and a similar survey in england found it to be 10% - what image are girls (and boys) being told is beauty/success?
• the continues profileration of porn and the sex traffic in the UK with the Home Office estimating that 4,000 women are enslaved;
• the gap between men and women's pay is still significant and the Equal Opportunities commission estimated it will take 45 years for women to receive similar pensions to men, 25 years for part-time workers to be paid the same rate and 200 years for the "power gap" in Parliament to close.
• and it won't be until 2025 until the number of female priests in the church of England is likely to match the number of men.

What do you think we as christians in the UK (and elsewhere) should be?

Liberty, equality and humanity: men, women and the Kingdom of God

So what got you, the brilliant Gladiator spoof?  The age old reinforcement of the conflict between men and women? Or the fact that we can live in harmony on a sunday?  Or not as it would often seem if you are a woman and have anything to do with a church or indeed any other time of the week either when you lead, speak, do - don't believe me that it happens in the emerging conversation, well check out this starkly uncomfortable post from Julie.

Now I can understand why people like David argue that they are not egalitarian when they set out how the term has been subverted so it is less about equality and much more to do with sounding noble whilst continuing with the oppression.  But it is very hard (for me impossible) to disagree with the literal presentation/meaning of the word and what it means as Makeesha so articulately, succinctly and credibly sets out.

Of course rather than playing word games and claiming badges, important as they can be, i firmly believe it is what we do in practice that reflects whether we are really serious about treating each other as full equals and partners in the conversation.  My blogroll is full of woman who I think are worth listening too, not because they are woman but because  I think they are wise, they are leaders in the emerging church and I want to have their voices in my life, influencing my thinking and my acting. 

In my walking around life I have the pleasure of having women lead and teach me, I am blessed that I go to a church which actively promotes and encourages women and men to exercise all of their gifts using the personalities and abilities that they have been given to do so. 

Where I have an influence to do so:

• on my blog (in linking, blogroll, respect for commantators),
• on others blogs by actively seeking out and learning from voices in the conversation
• or in the blogs I support by chosing guest authors and supporting them

I proactively chose men and women, in fact my bias is slightly for the female as I think it is not enough to say there are woman leading the emerging  church conversation or who have the potential too - i want to limit some of my rights and freedoms so that they can be heard, highlighted and receive the recognition they deserve.

I'm also aware that on the one hand this sounds like so much patronising crap (for which i apologise) and on the other a tiny drop in the ocean of indifferent acceptance or competition (again for my part in that I also aplogise).

Church is no where near where it should be, yet I have a hope...

I have a hope, it is in the eschatological reality of the Kingdom of God which for me is a vision of complete liberty, equality and humanity. 

I have hope in the very nature of God, in whose image we are created and in the fulness of Christ we will one day find ourselves fully dwelling in.  Where in the trinity (which is neither male nor female with the exception of the risen incarnate Jesus Christ) equality is not something to be grasped but something to be used to serve each other, as each member of the Godhead deliberately chooses to turn the spotlight off themselves and onto each other - other centred mutual submission bringing glory to the whole Godhead.

I can hope, I can pray and I can act and I invite you to join me...

for liberty...

Galatians 5:13

It is absolutely clear that God has called you to a free life. Just make sure that you don't use this freedom as an excuse to do whatever you want to do and destroy your freedom. Rather, use your freedom to serve one another in love; that's how freedom grows. For everything we know about God's Word is summed up in a single sentence: Love others as you love yourself. That's an act of true freedom. If you bite and ravage each other, watch out—in no time at all you will be annihilating each other, and where will your precious freedom be then?

for equality...

Philippians 2:5-8:

You should think in the same way Christ Jesus does.   In his very nature he was God.   But he did not think that being equal with God was something he should hold on to.   Instead, he made himself nothing.  He took on the very nature of a servant.   He was made in human form.   He appeared as a man.  He came down to the lowest level.  He obeyed God completely, even though it led to his death.   In fact, he died on a cross.

for humanity...

Galatians 3:28-29

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

How do you divide those chores?

Maybe it is my experiene but some chores such as taking the trash out and cutting the grass seem to fall to only to me - is their a gender bias at work? or is it cos my sweet wife does everything else that it is the least i can do [and i'm very good at doing the least!].

I feel particulaly manly having done two more tasks this weekend:

1. knocking down the wall between the toilet and the bathroom
2. bonfire of all the wood i hacked down from the garden since last autum

Now to stop this just being about me and my lack of muscle tone let me ask you a question (assuming you don't hire in your help):

• do you think/know/practice some chores that are regulary male or female only?
• if so what are they?
• how did you end up deciding on that division of labour?

In the meantime i'm off to have a long hot soak in the tub...

 

Are you going to be entering the Miss Christian United States beauty pageant this year?

 

I came across this link to Miss Christian United States (HT to Steven) and wasn't sure whether to laugh, cry or try and enter myself...  But then having perused the rules i see they have thwarted me by making it a requirement that to enter I must have been born a woman, and there i was hoping to miss christian drag queen :)

So who can enter you ask...

Character of a queen
A young woman of faith, courage, patriotism, dutiful to her natural family and her church family. There must be a singular charm in her aspect and manners since she obtained favor in the sight of all that looked upon her. -Esther 2:15 Mcclintock and Strong Encyclopedia.

The age divisions are:

4 to 8 years old - Princess
9 to 14 years old - Jr. Teen
15 to 18 years old - Teen
18 to 24 years old - Miss
18 to 50 years old - Ms.
(Ms.:For Christian women who are single mothers, divorced, or widowed.)
18 to 50 years old - Mrs.
(Mrs. Brand new division for married women, must be living with their husbands!!)

This year's pageant will be Sept. 15 2007 held at the Sherman Theater in Stroudsburg PA!

There are three areas of competition, each worth 33%!
On-stage Personality Interview/Personal Introduction/Evening Gown

Wardrobe requirements!
-Opening number/Personal Introduction-You will be in your opening number outfit!
-Interview-Wear a suit, dress, pantsuit or something you would wear to church!
-Evening gown-A gown of your choice! We ask that it be age appropriate!

Miss Christian Pageant is a subsidiary of Spiritual Healing Ministries whose goal is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ by any means necessary

[bold highlights above are mine - the bits that made me laught the most!]

No wonder Anna wrote the post the women formerly known as sexy!

So are you laughing, crying, or scrambling to get your application form in?

Domination free communities: learning to live other centred shared lives?

The very nature of God is both communal and other centred - God is in eternal community of one nature/will in three persons.  They do not not try and hog the stage for themselves but instead turn the spotlight on each other.  There is no hierarchy, there is no ego, there is no fear, there is no dominance - there is mutual acceptance, delight, laughter, creativity as each one bows to the other and loves to see the other lifted up.

I am going to leave the last few posts with their theme of Walter Wink's dominance free order with a final reflection of how we as christian communities can live out something of our future and of our past - in asking you to imagine with me what it would be like to be communities where we could be open to each other, we could live in a way where it was other centred - not stuck on the huaraches and domination systems that we as humans have created out of fear, the need to control and to be controlled - but how we were created in the beginning - in the image of this tri-une fear free other focused God and how it will be at the end when we receive our fully restored humanity in bodily form back and liberated, dominion-free,  life back again.

I am not sure I can imagine this myself, or think that clearly - if this piece is on community and taking the example of sex and sexuality as to how we can live other centred lives - than i am going to need your help.  Otherwise it becomes either just my wishful thinking or a new system of dominance that is the 'right' way we all have to conform too.

We all have a sexual nature

In my last post on christian sexuality, Molls made some very thoughtful generously said comments which made me think about our sexuality and how as communities we express that amongst each other.  Whether it is heterosexuality or homosexuality and the variations of expressions of sex, emotion, thought, domination filled or free, part of broken humanity or not than i would say it feels like to us who are going through it that this is our nature - and whether that is genetic or not from my own experience of my sexuality i would say it becomes 'nature,' it takes on who we are/feel and therefore i think we as communities need to get beyond that point.

Another way of approaching this is for me to say ok this happens but is it ok, or is it the best?  And if we are saying there is something better which might involve say not practising my homosexuality by having sex how much are we prepared to be communities where:

a) we can all share our sexual issues in an accepting way knowing that we need each other and God to help; and

b) am i prepared to give up some/all of my rights/freedoms -to be other centred rather than self centred?

For example: Cherith Fee-Nordling has suggested that maybe if i am a single christian maybe what i have to do is to give up what it is that i am asking my gay friend to give up and not get married, or indeed have sex, bur instead dedicating our lives to support each other gay/straight to live this out together- nd with all else that it might also cost us in terms of career, where we live etc...

I think too often we heterosexual christians sound like:

a) we are better morally because of our sexual orientation; and

b) that because we're straight have a right to sex and you because you're gay don't have that right? [Is it just me or does the term 'straight' seem to apply a betterness to our morality just because we are attracted to the opposite sex to us?].

I look at my own life and ongoing sexuality confusion and think that i am at least if not more messed up, same as a large chunk of the world, and if the rest of that chunk isn't messed up about sex they are messed up about something else.

Jesus has a sexual nature

I also look at Jesus, as a man who has a fully human male has a penis which works and therefore how he must have chosen celibacy because he was other centred: he was obedient to the father and it wouldn't have been loving to drag a wife into what he had to do.   

The film, the 40 yr old virgin, captured something of how strange this is in our sex focused culture but it must have also been very strange in Jesus time too - with its Hebraic expectations of family - how Jesus must have faced questions about his choice of staying single, how he must have faced pressure to get married, and be misunderstood about why he wasn't - after all a wild prophet like John might be able to get away with it but the village carpenter what was his excuse?  Am I am sure it was not because there weren't women who Jesus was attracted too - but somehow when he saw them and felt his own humanity stir in that moment he gave them back their humanity and refused to treat them as sex objects but instead saw their beauty as part of the reflected glory of his Father as fellow image bearers of God.   Jesus must therefore understands the emotions and consequences of making choices about our sexual expression.

How Jesus must have faced choices all the time to give life/humanity back to people rather than treat them as sex objects/means of gratification and therefore has not only been to the no sex place but understands sexual feelings.  But also how he is for the other, how maybe gay or straight, male or female we need to learn to be affirming and appreciative of each other rather than so scared of not being able to keep it in our pants? 

Can we learn to be honest and open about our feelings?  Are we gonna live in an environment where we are scared about falling sexually that we can no longer relate to the opposite sex?  Or an environment where we can share and confess our sexual feelings and learn to give each other our humanity back - not flirt for affection or need sex to make us feel good about ourselves but live in communities where we feel good cos we are loved, where it is normal for us to appreciate each other and the image of God that we each reflect in personality and our bodies?

Can we walk this out as communities in the the light?

I mean writing all this sounds weird - it makes me feel way uncomfortable cos i have been taught that once married its all about building barricades, about being careful, about not mixing with the opposite sex - all my worries kick in and i go man is this not asking for trouble?

Maybe another way to think about it is trouble is already there?  Temptation is already there but cos we keep it hidden and in the dark it just goes on its merry way.  Maybe we need to bring it out into the light?  Maybe we need to to think about how as communities we need each other?  How married people aren't better or single people people aren't better but that we all need each other and can learn from each other and help each other to reflect God to each other and affirm and care for each other.

Jesus said it was for our love for each other not our fear people would know that God was real.  If we practise being for each other in the same way the trinity practise being for each other - where it becomes not about me and my rights but about mutually living for each other then maybe we'll have something that is not just an argument based on reason but a way of life that encompasses love and experiences the Spirit at work amongst us, shaping us more like that?

What do you think?

I think what I am asking is:

• how can we do this? 
• what would it look like to live other centre lives not just asking people to give something up but asking what can i give up to help them?
• would you change your views on homosexuality if it meant you being prepared to surrender your own sex life and live with them as a friend and companion who together shared a life of celibacy and its related struggles?
• do you feel weird about men and women as the joint image bearers of a communal other centred God finding ways to affirm and share each other and be for each other?
• what scares you?  excites you?
• do you think that if we do something we'll be at least starting to bring light and life and if we do nothing all the things we are afraid of will still continue to happen but they'll be some body else's problem?

God's domination-free order - exploring our own ongoing liberation

"In his Beatitudes, in his extraordinary concern for the outcasts and the marginalised, in his wholly unconventional treatment of women, in his love of children, in his rejection of the belief that high ranking men are the favourites of God, in his subversive proclamation of a new order in which domination will give way to compassion and communion, Jesus brought to fruitition the prophetic longing for the 'kingdom of God' - an expression we might paraphrase as "God's domination-free order."

Whilst we might dream of a domination free order we seem to be living in a domination full world.  A world full of systems and structures, powers and people who oppress us, who push us down, who seek to control. 

Sometimes we are aware of these when our own space and self is under threat...

sometimes we're the pushers, when we want something, when it's our will/want that we are out to get or just someone to take the fall/blame  for us. 

Sometimes we are unaware,  just part of the system, to quote the definition of the Matrix, the system/culture is "the world pulled over [y]our eyes to blind us from the truth..." so for instance economic systems where what we consume comes at the expense of someone else's sufferings/exploitation [third world workers, the environment], or where it is the taken as the norm, like slavery 200 yrs ago, blacks not having less rights in the southern states of America.

"Some of them want to use you, some of them want to be used by you..."

So sang the Eurythmics and I am sure we all have our own experiences with living in/with domination. 

For me personally I grew up with one dominating parent and one passive one, that effected me in many ways not least in taking a decision not that i would not be passive.  To fight domination I refused to be dominated by anyone, ever! 

That decision was to impact me in many ways,  I could never lose an argument, which meant I never listened.  I was always right so I was never very teachable.  I also needed to be in control and there is nothing more likely to end up in abuse as a husband like me who took being obeyed very literally indeed and didn't bother too much about the servanthood of a sacrificing love that also goes along with that part of the bible.

It also impacted on my sexuality and the desire to dominate and be in control led me via the wonderful world of the net to discover BDSM and decide that a sexuality based on the giving of submission and the exercise of domination was how i was created to be.  I've talked about my experiences more here and here and how i came not only recognise not only that my desire to dominate was born out of my fears but also how God helped me changed and is helping me change so that my character has become more about giving and less about getting, more about me growing in self awareness and surrendering/giving up/laying down my rights - including my right to be right.

Dream with God and me of a domination free world

I want to do a couple of posts looking at the idea put forward by Walter Wink [who I quoted to begin with] of a domination free order - what would that look like, feel like - particularly with some of the issues that seem to be just the way things are as christians in the way that slavery was a couple of hundred yrs ago [and indeed this is still a live issue even today].  Before  I do, i'd like to hear your thoughts:

• what you feel when you read the quote and think of a domination free order being a way of expressing the kingdom of God?
• your own experiences of systems/structures/circumstances of domination whether conscious of them or not at the time?
• you own experiences of liberation/grace/freedom from these?
• your own thoughts as to where there are such domination systems today in our thought/world view/culture/experience
• anything else that you've thought/felt/inspired to share...

Love the sinner...love the sinner: sexuality, sin and christian leadership

I still am thinking about christianity and sexual ethics - but this strand of thought is how far we allow sexually sinful people into the church - how much do they have to believe before they can belong and more than that, what level of moral perfection is needed to be achieved before they can start to lead...

My musings are inspired this time:

first by Jamie Arpin-Ricci's powerfully honest and beautiful post about his own struggles with feeling attracted to people of the same sex, which if you haven't read it then please check it out Jamie's personal reflection here and his follow up here; and

second this really thought provoking post by Shannon on is black still black and white still white.  I have lots of thoughts on Shannon's post but i think to write them there would be churlish, i don't want to litter his blog with my half formed thinking - and when you're a guest it is not polite to leave wet towels all over the bathroom!  I understand where Shannon is  coming from, it is the script that i have spent most of my life reading off of but am now starting to wonder how much is just my evangelicalism speaking and how much of it really is Jesus...

The question is that classic one of whether to allow gay people to become leaders  - Shannon suggests the position that i am most familiar with of gays being able to come to church but not allowed to lead- just as say a church wouldn't allow  a [serial] adulterer to be a leader etc...

But i am left wondering at what level do we allow sinners into leadership - after all i am guessing that such restrictions on leadership are not placed on people who think lustful thoughts, who find it hard to forgive, who feel pride, gluttony, addictions to work etc etc?  We seem to send out the message that leaders should be morally pure, upstanding examples of the sinless Jesus...

Or maybe i've just the point somewhere along the line?

i'm presuming leadership is not someone walking through the door and being promoted to snr pastor on the spot - but one that has a whole lot of variable roles - and therefore if i am gay i can't lead in any of them, even though God might have given me the gift because being gay is a sin, but if i gossip then that's ok cos that's more acceptable - or is it?

If i was gay and came to such a church i think i'd hear that most loved refrain of heh we love you we just hate your sin - which to the speaker is mighty comforting to tick that loving box but to the listener it sounds like heh i'd like to love you but you're a sinner - we don't love your kind round here...

If i was gay and came to such a church i don't think i would tell anyone that i was, i'd say heh as soon as i do i won't get to use my leader gifts and they are as much a part of me as my sinful nature - but it that is gonna hold me back from serving God then why do i need to reveal that - or bisexual in the sad case of someone who did that and rose right to the top of his denominational tree before stumbling once too often...

In fact i am not sure me with all my struggles with my own sexuality would not have got far in such a church - which was why i never told anyone for yrs and struggled so much - and yes i was in leadership.  in fact when i started sharing my struggles i was asked to stay in leadership which surprised me but allowed me to model honesty, confession, grace and love and to see people come out a little from behind their own masks...

I know from my evangelical back ground that faith is a private matter and that the sins we get most het up about are those obvious private ones - and seemingly minority ones - like sexuality when it is revealed in public, not when it starts off with a lustful look...

I wonder though when we will also scrutinise our own institutions and ask ourselves how much our 'right' actions prolong and promote sin?  How do are black and white rules that ride coach and horses through grace?  Does the system we operate whilst looking righteous actually encourage sin?  Do we ask people to live to the laws that we say are important and define what they are and how they apply and therefore deny them the grace that they were promised when they decided to orientate their lives around Jesus in the first place?

I say we cos i think i am as much a part of the problem here as anyone else in the evangelical church - we do our pharisee bit in the most complimentary way, we are zealous for God, we are passionate about his word, we espouse high moral life and then maybe we wonder why our churches are such shiny happy places for shiny happy well scrubbed people who play the game, manage our sin and say thank goodness we have rules in the bible and we get to enforce them...

But our we missing out on something - if what we focus on determines what we miss then by focusing on sexuality we let a whole lot of other sins slip by... by focusing on law we let a whole lot of grace slip by...

I'm not saying that snr church leaders should not show maturity of character, a commitment to follow Christ etc but wouldn't it be great if we also had leaders who were able to grow by being honest, by confessing, by sharing their struggles and fears with the fear of being disbarred, banned, or sacked?  What would that do to us to learn about mercy and grace, to experience them and to have leaders who have grown up in their faith immersed in them? 

Maybe we need to check that script again and possibly start to think of getting a new one, as for me the same old lines just aren't working...

Lord of the (wedding) rings...

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,

One Ring to bring them all and in holy matrimony bind them

with apologies to Tolkien for the spoofing of the One ring but this comment from Molly has turned my thoughts towards the issue of men and women, particularly in a marriage context (although there is a wider societal one to bare in mind as well)...

"My husband says the same thing [why did God bother creating two different sexed]. I confess to having a hard time not wincing when he says it, though I try, but after living through patriarchy, I'm just a little sensitive, I think... He says what you just did, but what I hear is, "why would God bother to make 2 sexes if one wasn't supposed to be in charge of the other one."

Is domination by one sex over the other a correct reading of the intention/wish/will of God for men and women?  Or is it a result of the contamination of sin, of men and women deciding to seperate from God and each other, to struggle against one another for dominance, a selfish contest which men have managed to win overtly hands down resorting in women fighting covertly, force vs manipulation, conquest vs resistance etc...

Mirred in our own selfishness, seperation and my love affair with all things I,  it is easy to blame each other, it is even easier to resist any change in the status quo in case it adveresly disadvantages me - but if I believe as I do that the good news story of God is partly about restoration of his creation project, a liberation from my own self preocupations and an invitaiton to take part in the inbreaking of heaven on earth then this is something I need to consider... God is the God of yesterday, today and tomorrow - so I need to be mindful of what is God today in the context of God in the past and in the future - but that to me means thinking of the will/wish of God for humanity as expressed in male and female rather than merely arguing for one human position or another...

God's will in creating men and women..?

A good place to start my thinking is to reflect on what God was expressing when he created men and women as setout in the bible narrative in Genesis 1 & 2. In Genesis 1 we read:

Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

So God created human beings in his own image.
      In the image of God he created them;
      male and female he created them.

This triggers off some thoughts in me - God says he wants to make humanity like "us" - I don't know what it says to you but one this is that God is communal - 3 persons in one and makes us 2 persons in one (if you like the image of woman being created out of man) - i.e. there is something distinctive but also of incredible unity - humanity was created for community with God and each other - the echo of the dance of the trinity was to be repeated with humanity - not a seperarate dance but a linked one, like a ripple within a ripple...

There are a number of Qs that get thrown up at this point, particularly if you believe that the account is a literal history i.e. this is exactly what happened at some point in history:

1. does God have a hierachy (if so that would support humanity having one)
2. does primacy in creation count i.e. does the fact that the story speaks of woman being created out of man

The second point is less important if you believe the story is high truth/God inspired narrative which is meant to teach us some important truths about our origin and God but not literally what happened i.e. if we involved it would have required both male and female to do so, unless we were all asexual...

(a number of other Qs also are there in terms of does our understanding of the beginning make sense to the reality of the present and indeed the reality of the future...)

but let's start at the beginning and discuss together the thoughts provoked by a more literal reading first and then a more narrative one second...

Not that feminisation of the church again, don't they know we're educated civilised liberal western christians?

Thanks to Toni I have encountered the phenomon of the Godmen that has been stirring up Christian cyberspace (I'm always late to the party!).  Fernando has done an excellent job (as ever) of pulling the threads together, (including media interest from the LA Times, amongst others) and offering his own insightful comments... I suggest as a balance to the media representation and cries of maturity that readers check out the Godmen blog, whose post in response to the LA Times article seems well, quite mature...

My instant reaction to this sort of subject  is this is just men being, well, immature, beating their chests and playing at some sort of uber machismo misogny... how much of that reaction I wonder is based on my western liberal educated perspective which has drummned into me ever since i was born that anything which is male dominated is bad because when men gather as men history has shown they cook up ways of surpressing women and therefore should be avoided at all costs...

I mean is this just me?  Am I the only conflicted male out there who almost feels I need to rush out a condemnation of groups of this nature (or at least ironic sarcastic disdain) if only to try and prove I am not that sort of surpressing male who wants to do that sort of male thing - excluding women is an age all precursor to running amok, right...?

Then again I am all too aware that church is a very passive environment  - that i'd have a far more spiritually dynamic time climbing a mountain and revelling with God in the beauty of that view as the sweat dries on my face - even as I write that and I feel a longing swell in me, something that says yes there is part of me that responds to the dynamic of action, adventure, of the outdoors, of doing something that makes me sweat and my muscles ache... I'm not trying to claim mountain walking or wilderness viewing as exclusive male preserves, merely saying that I recognise that I am wired in certain ways which may or maynot be gender related...

In a church dynamic there is a certain way of behaving and a certain style - people (that's men and women) raise their eyebrows about the oft quoted thought that men don't like singing love songs to Jesus - after all men happily sing with other men at rock concerts or sports games, right...  Yes absolutely right and I don't want to turn church into a sports event or a rock concert but I do want to sing more than juist love songs to Jesus about how beautiful he is just as I want to to tell my wife more than she is beautiful and I love her or here her tell me how much she loves me for what I do for her as well as how good I look...

I wonder how women feel about this - when I posted some hotly debated  thoughts on why men don't go to church one of the significant reactions, it seemed to me, was fear - that this is the pre-cursor to male oppression, men being masculine causes significant disquiet - understandable I think when you look at the history of male supression of women in and outside of church - but I think fear is not a good enough reason to not think through why groups like Godmen appear...

Our western intellectual mindset may dislike/fear such overt male displays, we have been c0nditioned to do so, but I do not think we should create bogeymen to scare us with 'be male in this way today and you will surpress women tomorrow.'  Nor do I think should we just write this off with a well this is just men who have read 'wild at heart' and are now playing tarzan... as if that helps us by creating yet another male/female charicature...

I do feel terms like feminisation of the church are unhelpful, they provoke conflict, polarity and really allow us to duck the issue... the problem is not some feminisation agenda and the solution is not some return to a male dominated subservient female environment - as if anti-feminisation would or could indeed be the solution - no thanks - I like women and I like women in the church, I don't want less of them, I want more of them, living and expressing their faith to the fulness of their calling and abilities...

However, what if wild at heart, Godmen, et al are a reaction to something of the soul rather than of the rational interlect?  Maybe yes it is an overreaction in some cases/some people but in most cases it is not so much about anti-female or pro-male hiearchy/dominance but some desire on the behalf of men to express their faith as men?  We want men to follow Christ and I for one applaud anything that helps men connect with God... it will not work I am sure for all men but for some it might well be the dynamic they need.  Of course there is danger that some men might trip over learning maturity but then again there is a danger with doing nothing, some christian men I know are so wet that you could tumble dry them for a year and they'd still come out dripping...

I should know as I have lived at both these extremes meekness with  passive anger is just as bad as over dominant supression - in fact my desire to avoid being passive christian male and escaping the life I saw male model figures lead led me to making a vow that shaped my whole sexuality, character and nature... not good!

I would suggest then that something that is helpful in men exploring their masculinity rather than expressing one stereotype or another (the christian nice guy vs the christian authority leader man) is something that should be encouraged... if that involves men gathering as men then so be it, even if they do swear a few times and play loud music... if that helps make them better followers of Christ and therefore better men as a result.

I said in this post on my telling/interpretation of the good news/gospel story that I think the story is about God continuing the creation project and restoring us to full humanity - such a tale of restoration for me as meant me learning something of dying to myself , as a husband I have found it supremely challenging to love Debs in a way that is about giving rather than getting - it means that I cannot do what I want when I want but it also means learning to become emotionally aware, able to express my feelings and struggles not just with her but with my faith community...

So whilst we are consigning stereotypes to the dustbin of history may I also make a plea for the lone christian self sufficient silent type to go in there as well - I have gained nothing from not being honest and open with people about my struggles, sins, dreams and triumphants and so much from doing so...

Enough of my ramblings...what do you think?