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08 May 2007

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David

Man that's deep stuff. Stop it, my brain hurts.

Very good insight. I know Robymac talks about his experiences in 'detoxing' from church, which can mean lots of things. Like sitting in a pub watching sports, or smoking cloves on a balconey while bitching about the 'institution' and comparing the church to Wal-Mart.

But you are correct, that we do need to move on. Those of us exploring emerging are not just emerging from something but emerging to somthing, even though we may not know what that is; and for each of us, it will probably look a bit different.

- Okay so this post went too long for comments, so you can read the rest on my blog momentarily. :-)

You Paul, are a Mercutio.

Thank you.

If you want to know what that means, watch Romeo and Juliet and then head over to my blog.

And yeah, that sounds like a shameless plug... ;-)

Philip

Just came across your blog, really good stuff. It forces me to rethink some of my attitudes. I may pinch the pic for my blog :)

Paul

Hi David, sorry about the headache, how about a soothing pint or 2 when you make it to blighty for the Wake??? ;)

No need to worry about shameless plugginh, great post at your place - GO READ IT PEOPLE :)

We are people on a journey but to cut off all our routes and ties and to therefore cut ourselves out of a large part of the story seems to me to lead to spiritual amnesia.

Yes let us deal with the trauma, going through christian ER is not a fun experience but on the other side we are not a blank slate.

I liked what yoy said in your post David, we need people who can see we are all on the same side and find ways to act as bridges - and i think those bridges extend not just between modern/post modern but across our christian history and heritage to help us see ourselves in God's story anew...

Now I'm off to look for Queen Nab ;)

Paul

Thanks Philip for stopping by. Help yourself to the pic :)

Rupert Ward

Thanks Paul: good stuff.

I think it is interesting in the emerging conversation that we often are highly critical of IC that exists now, but draw huge inspiration from IC 500 or 1000 years ago ... which was perhaps even more institutionalised and corrupt!

It saddens me when people are very critical of church. THere is something in the heart of God that he is passionate about chruch. I am not saying we shouldn't be able to critique, or that everything that happens is good. Of course not. But i want to bring transformation from the inside rather lob stones from the sidelines.

It seems to me there is much that has been unhelpful, wrong, hurtful, damaging in church. At points IC has been and is abusive. There does need to be a rethink about what is church, how do we do it, what does it look like. But i think that is inherient in any human organisation, and will be as previlent in some emerging church groups (eventually) as it has been in IC.

The issue is the human heart (which i think is what you are saying). If that changes, we can see churches change ... and that starts with me!

Dan Morehead

Playfully, I tend to say the only other option to organized religion is disorganized religion. While there is much truth in this, there are other options. Romanticism (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism) should be see as a big determiner of this sort of discussion. Sadly, few, whether in emergent gatherings or others who wish to see institutions go by the wayside, theologically analyze what is in the intellectual water they are drinking. Institutions are necessary for sustaining practices without which a moral life cannot be sustained.

Paul

Hi Rupert, yes i think you are right. Critique is helpful but a pathological focus on the recent past can actually blind our critique of our own current practices, our choice of models and means etc.

thank you for working on the inside - change from the inside out ;)

Paul

thanks Dan. Ah yes disorganised religion or why my church isn't a cult, lol.

Thank you for highlighting romanticism it is another helpful warning from the past and gives me pause again to ask why the lenses i look through are tainted the colour that they are and by doing so what colours i may not see at all...

Dan Morehead

I think my last line may have been the most important. "Institutions are necessary for sustaining practices without which a moral life cannot be sustained."

Paul

thanks Dan, yes i think that is vital and something i picked on in part 2 - it is not that we as churches are not institutions, more what sort of institutions are we?

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