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15 May 2007

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Tim

My only thought is that Bretherton appears to come across as afraid of the church changing it’s appearance (becoming, in this case part of consumer culture). Isn’t this just another excuse for a measuring point? You can just imagine someone asking – is this truly church? Well, yes, didn’t you know, it used to be a brothel?

I like though his referral to our repeated mistakes from PCM. I’ve thought that for a while, it was nice to hear someone else say it.

Oh, and I didn’t like his ‘changing the face of the internet’ metaphor – to think that you can is to misinterpret what it is – for it isn’t a thing at all. I think it’s an interesting conecpt to re-interpret our connections to one another.

Paul

Thanks Tim - it is probaly my poor hack summary job that gives that impression. I think rather than measurement it is about being aware of the continuity and discontinuity - that we are part of the consumer culture because us as people in the church are immersed in it. If we are taking that honest critique and awareness it becomes more than just how can we be better/more ethical consumers to how can we also be about transforming ourselves so that we are replacing that consumer identity with god's one, being counter cultural, transforming and transcending our environment.

Do you still see that as a measuring point and are measuring points a bad thing?

As a man far more aware of the net than me i respect what you say - how do you see christianity in respect of the internet?

tim

But don't all measuring points become sticks to beat the faithful with? IE: PCM 'requiring' baptism of the holy spirit...

Mike Pelechaty

EC and PCM
In my own experience, I have been in the PCM since my teenage years (now I am 49.) Much of the discussion concerning the EC is new to me. I am afraid that the PCM is turning introspective and becoming culturally irrelevent. The underlying historical force resulting in its isolational stance, in my opinion, is its lack of the understanding of the principles of the Kingdom of God. Yet in reading the last post, I find much of it so cerebral. Forgive my ignorance or shallowness, but how does the contempoary work of the Holy Spirit influence the discussion concerning church structure? Along with this question, I often ask myself, is the church (and its structure) for man's benefit or is it for God? It seems to me that the answer to that question is pivotal in terms of the direction the discussion proceeds.

Mike Pelechaty

Paul

it's a good point Tim, i think what helps us is looking at the wider history/traditions of the church - maybe to be that type of pentecostal you do have to speak in tongues, fair enough but to be a christian, what does the wider tradition say/guide us?

Do you think that helps with our critique of ourselves by looking beyond ourselves and our own measuring hobby horse sticks

Paul

Hi Mike

they are great thoughts and questions. I apologise for the excess cerebral in the above - this is a series of posts where what i am seeing is that we as christians stay in a cycle of reaction shaped church, where we write off the last lot cos we didn't like it but one day we too become old churches and find that the next gen writes us off in turn... or we abandon critique and our place in the history and tradition of the church, wondering after awhile why the new shiny things that we started off with have now got tarnished with age... or we abandon church all together...

I'd like to propose instead something called deep church, to help us both to face what the Spirit is sayign today in the ongoing work of Jesus in his church and in our shared past history - to me this has to be a be a two way conversation that helps us see that church is more than just my collective experience, that opens us all to both the new/renewal and the old, wisedom, treasures, practices etc that can help us.

Does that help at all?

You can read more about deep church at www.deepchurch.org.uk

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