What the people formerly known as the congregation did next..?

Bill Kinnon wrote a very good polemic piece: "we the people formerly known as the congregation."   Whilst it is very well written and for many people captured and articulated their feelings I found myself reading it with some concerns. 

Mostly my concern was that is written in a polarised style which becomes about us vs them, or we vs you in this case.  I find this unhelpful as to me  it creates artificial divisions and fissures and with such a scatter shot polemic most of us are bound to find our own pet peeve with the church  - we are forced to choose whether we are a we or a you, whether we like it or not. 

I also think that whilst it is easy to articulate in many ways what is wrong with the church it is a lot harder to say what we we will do instead that will be better, rather than transcending the line the post seems to take an opposite position along the same line.  And no doubt in the future the we  [who is the us] will become the you [as the them] as the next generation after us recompensates/caliberates.

I personally feel that we need to advocate both a generous orthodoxy as well as an orthopraxy and that starts by exploring how much we have in common and indeed whilst we may differ on expression we are still part of one universal catholic church.  How we do that in practice is a bit more complicated given the feelings we can have about some of our fellow christians.

Which is why for me this post by Lily: Cheeseburger hold the cheese? is at worst an excellent companion piece and at best an awesome attempt to start honestly articulate some thinking of ok, we were the congregation but what does that mean/look like/feel...  here's a quote:

Can I reverse the process? Can I take the religious elements out of my relationship with Jesus? The elements of a weekly, planned service where we sing, light candles, hear a message, pray (or whatever) pat each other on the back and go home; instead having a gathering that is random and flowing and unceremonial, and still end up with something that looks something like "church"? And by that I mean a centralized gathering of the faithful, not "church".

Is it possible to reclaim Jesus from the damage religion has done to His message without abandoning Him altogether? Can we sift out the Goodness, Grace and Love from the religious judgmentalism, fundamentalism and rituals and yet still be left with Jesus in the end? Will this thing we end up with even look anything at all like Jesus? Or will it just be some mushy, watery substance that used to be Jesus? Does Jesus require religion?

I don't want to have to accept religion without Jesus in order to be able to love people unconditionally without being called a heretic.

Instead, I want Jesus as my religion, hold the religion.

What do you think?  Any thoughts yourself as to what the people known as the congregation should do next? 

Comments

[David]

Very good thoughts again Paul. If we we're both bishops in the Vatican I'd vote you in as the next Pope!

That was my thought recently that I posted... the Holy#$%^ we are all one body! So why do we have to be so 'us against them' with our differences.

But I think it's natural and necessary as culture moves forward and the church tries to as well. Part of moving into a new era is our ability to have to distinguish ourselves from the old. Jesus did it many times when he said, "It it written....but I say..."

My hope is that we don't separate ourselves in bitterness or anger. It was Newton who said something like, "If I can see farther than anyone it's because I stood on the shoulder of giants."

We, as the emerging church, have stood on the shoulders of giants and if we cut them down, how high can we really stand. We'll see no further, and do nothing more, but maybe see the same thing through different lenses.

So, I for one, as I move forward in what God has called us to do, I do want to distinguish myself from the 'traditional way' but at the same time, lift them up as well. For if I can help them stand on their toes, as I am on their shoulders, than my vision extends even more.

This is not without conflict or passionate disagreement or hurt feelings. When the shoulders I stand on call me heretic, what am I do?

Distinguish myself, ground myself in Jesus, and move ahead...

To uncharted waters.

Wow, that was long. hehe

[lily]

Hey - thanks for the mention, Paul.

Your reader David says " I hope we don't separate ourselves in our bitterness and our anger."

Unfortunately, in many ways we do have the tendency to separate ourselves. We see so much that is wrong with the current system that we instinctively want to make sure people don't equate "us" with "them". I agree it's a problem - I just am not sure how to fix it. Goodness knows I am guilty of pointing fingers and saying "Just to be clear, these are all the ways I am NOT like them."

I am wanting to look more personally at why this is and I hope to discover how to remedy this attitude.

Thanks again!

[Ken Allen]

Yes i've got some thoughts. In China there are a lot of people coming to Christ, but if you look into the China Resource Center you can see there is a deep need for training and discipleship. We need each other and like it or not, Christianity is a religion, but it is the only one that leads to relationship here and now with the creator of heaven and earth. We should get back to our roots. Immitate the heart of the people in Acts. Live our family lives out as outlined in Deaut. 6 and Luke 15. But, right now, before I do any of that, i am going to abide in Him as John 15 says. In His overflowing love and Grace.
Ken

[Mak]

I don't think separation is necessarily a bad thing. I don't think that seeing differences and even loathing some of them is a bad thing. So I guess I don't really see much of a problem or maybe more that focusing on this "problem" of perceived polarization (which, by the way, I see very little of) is unhelpful at best and dismissive of real pain and real problems at worst.

[Paul]

Thanks David, I think you catch the tension beautifully - of course maybe there is something that we again need to go back to the church fathers when being heretic was not something you got burnt from it was where you swung the theological pendulum maybe a little to far and indoing so lost something of the overall dynamic. You didn't get burnt you just got engaged in a series of letters, sermons etc from the other Bishops.

I think it would be a shame for an emerging church movemet to get started with different forms but with a spirit that was still thoroughly modern in terms of we're right you're wrong.

Or to put it another way maybe the the tension we experience you could say is similar to that of the Jerusalem Jewish church and the more mixed emerging church of antioch - where it got pretty heated about what is/is not important in terms of following Jesus into different cultures. Whilst we can expect heat, passion and a bit of pain I think its beautiful how Antioch and its emerging church plants still cared passionately for their Jeruslem based brothers and sisters.

I guess i think we have a choice how we respond, even in our pain and anger and frustration - i'm not trying to minimise those feelings that so many have, just asking that we move from pointing out the faults in the church we're in to being the church we'd rather be - it doesn't take a manifesto of faults, or even blessing, validation or recognition.

But if we're embarking on something new i'd rather not do so by ongoing defining of what i don't like about existing church or some sort of cure based on pathological disection - as i posted esle where the church not the kingdom of God but a part of it let's go and inhabit the kingdom and recognise that we may have some of our own forms, functions, traditions, tunes etc in doing so and some that we take with us.

heh that was quite long too... :)

[Paul]

oh, maybe we could be like joint popes - sort of a timeshare thang??

[Paul]

thanks Lyn - you wrote a great post and I really appreciated it.

I think you are right it is easy to say heh i'm not with them even when we're not feeling hurt, angry, frustrated etc.

In my own journey i think i have got to the point where i think that i might be part right but that i am also part wrong. That the mistakes of the "them" i will no doubt repeat in my own version and therefore maybe as much as i have a passion to be a christian that muight look/sound/be different in some ways in others i'll no doubt balls up just as much :)

I think mostly it comes down to me reading the sermon on the mount and thinking it isn't so much right/wrong but how can i be generous with people i don't agree with, if i put myself in the spotlight first do i come off all that much better - better in some ways sure but in others no...

I think that takes time to get too, especially when I was royally pissed off and consumed with how right i was and how wrong most other christians were...

which is why i liked your post, it was constructive, reflective, searching and asking real excellent Qs - what does this mean in practice, what should we be like, how do i define myself in my identity/culture and follow Jesus.

[Paul]

Ken, thanks for your thoughts - you are right we can get so caught up in the modern/post-modern changes in the west that we can forget about christianity dominant centres in the south and far east and the church exploding their. Thanks for the reminder and bringing a balance...

[Paul]

Thanks Mak, up front I am not trying to minimise anyone's pain or frustration. It is a horrible hurting business for a lot of people, including me in the past, who has been very angry with the modern church.

But i can't stay in the pain/angry bubble forever - seperation is not bad if we mean doing something different but seperation when it means disowning and setting up a conflict between us and them, i fear is.

I'd rather we just said heh you are great, what you do works for so many people but it doesn't work for me so i'm gonna try it this way with a few people who feel like this - we might sound a little different and look a little different but heh we'll make some of the same mistakes and some new ones of our own. We are still part of the universal church in all its god revealed glory and fucked up brokeness.

Oh and i just wanted to say thank you for the heritage, grounding and space that you've given me in order to be able to step out into this dynamic of the kingdom...

ok that is not an easy thang to do, especially when we are hurting but i keep coming back to this point that i want to follow Jesus and that dynamic of living out an other centred generous life - which i think is something of the heart of the sermon on the mount. It doesn't make me a better christian it just is something i want to put into action and that effects how i treat the people i disagree with, even if i don't feel that generous towards them.

If that makes sense?

[Mak]

yes, it makes sense. But I guess I don't hear anyone NOT doing that. everyone I know, including David and myself fully realize the goodness from others and the "rightness" in much of modernity and conservative evangelicalism. But recognizing the good only takes us so far.

I appreciate what you're saying paul, and I don't disagree with you or think you're wrong. I just don't see how it's possible to "move on" without continuing to assess what was before and what still exists.

it's not getting "stuck" it's actually the process of moving on.

I don't know anyone currently engaged in the conversation who is stuck in their pain and frustration. Maybe you're just seeing them in that phase. If they were stuck there, they would have left the church completely.

they're still engaged in the conversation, that alone speaks to their desire to move on.

[Mak]

by the way paul, you and I have been through this issue before and I know we're on the same page - - just different sides of the page. So my comments are more for the broader conversation, not so much aimed directly at you.

[pistol pete]

There is no doubt that some form of "faith fellowship" among Christians is necessary for growing in a relationship with Christ. This can happen within or beyond the institutional church. As a pastor, I want to believe that there will always be people in the pews. As a Christian, it really doesn't matter.

[Paul]

Mak, thank you, i appreciate you greatly and what i love is where i am lacking in some fields of perception in our ongoing conversation you have by the bucket load. It is a great reminder to me of why i am only ever at best part right because not only do i lack much in knowledge i also am viewing things only from one vantage point - maybe one that is more mole hill than mountain top in this case :).

I like that we share common ground that people reflecting or assessing what has gone before - it is one of my joys in exploring deep church that it encourages this sort of reflection. And i think the reflection of what we are closest too is going to rub us a lot rawer than going further back into our shared church history - no doubt because we are so close that we are involved personally and we know people who we care about deeply who are also involved.

My concern in terms of assessing is that we have a balance, for better a word, when we do so. A generous orthodoxy means that we can learn and appreciate truths across the spectrum of christian faith expression without claiming or implying that our version is any more right or better or appropriate than any other - it just is different.

For me i think that a generous orthodoxy almost implies a generous orthopraxy, that it becomes not so much about who is right but do i treat people in ways that are good? And since i am most raw and struggle to do so with the church of modernity maybe this provides God ample opportunity to help my character grow, to teach me patience, love, generousity, kindness etc?

Maybe in the end regardless of what page we are on or even if we are in the same book I keep coming back to how I treat people as the touch stone.

In western europe the church is heamoraging 50,000 people a week, so maybe others are deciding they no longer want to play or be part of it. So maybe too many people are stuck in their pain round here or have just become numb and withdrawn..?

[Paul]

Thanks Pete, so very true. I think we need to move away from form and instead talk about practice - what's the fruit so to speak. I don't think it matters what christians do as long as we can keep reflecing is this helping me to live out the kingdom life? What common practices have helped other christians across two thousand yrs to live out the kingdom? how can i practice these in my culture/context?

[Mak]

I agree paul that the way we treat one another can grow in grace and patience through this process - - it would certainly be a travesty if our experiences do not grow us more in the way of Christ.

[Paul]

thanks Mak, i am always grateful for how you help me encounter a greater beyond my own reality and the Christ of our shared realities, who becomes greater still as a result.