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30 October 2006

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John Smulo

Paul,

This is a very helpful well-thought out post. I especially am challenged by what you say about needing to be part of the solution and also pay the price.

It reminds me that I can get into thinking ethics is about words instead of hands and feet.

Stephen Garner

Great piece, especially the bit about the cost of ethical engagement. I think ethical engagement scares a lot of people. They don't want to think about these things because they might end up losing something - whether that be a cherished "personal" belief, material goods or respect of peers.

I read Amy Laura Hall's article "For Shame?" in Christianity Today the other day, and it made me stop and think about how my words and actions match up.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/september/35.40.html

Tim

Any ethical debate exists witin a climate of societal values. At the moment, the life of an individual is important - a century ago it was duty and respect. Let us not confuse our ethical decisions with personal preference. After all, are not all these things important parts of what we call 'good' human character?.

Ethical angst (in one form or another) will always be with us, so thinking, praying and understanding are really the only things we can do when presented with the daily conundrums all of us face.

For every issue, there will be a multitude of responses - and which one is right - the one that gets the most votes - I think not??

Paul

John - thanks very much.

Stephen - thanks for the thoughts and the link will check it out - I think the moral imperative to get involved is a rubicon that I am often reluctant to cross, so this was pretty much a memo to self...

Tim, bro yoo are my guru of angst, lol but you are right, ethical enagement requires heads, hearts and hands...

DH

Hey Paul, Hope you don't mind me commenting. What is your take on this. To me it isn't what is said but the attitude and heart of the person pointing out the problems. If we correctly relay the attitude from the Bible and it isn't our attitude than I feel it is appropriate to point out things to help people to the Truth. I feel that many times the Bible IS definitive on things for the 21st century but many times ones predisposition gets in theway before a person actually looks into it. When I discuss issues like abortion, homosexuality and other moral social issues I find those who support these terrible things have presdispositions that make them support these issues irrespective of the Bible. When one reads Romans 1, 1 Cor 6 and all of the many other passages one can see it is difficult to support these issues. I do think that care is needed not to slam stuff over the head. However, if a friend or close person has got a view different from Scripture I think one can lovingly state what the Word of God says from an attitude "have you considered what x,y,z scripture says", etc. I have had friends who happened to be homosexual and without me saying a word they knew I didn't approve of their behavior but I still cared about them like Jesus did and at the same time they knew I cared about them. However, we mustn't remember that that love should never be done in such a way as to condone things that God says is wrong. It is a balance that I hope you and I can appreciate rather than reject the soap-box and/or reject life/love off of my soapbox.

I feel all people can be turned from sin but when a culture says "one can't change a behavior" that is where culture is placing limits unecessarily on God. That "behavior" can be anything but for as an example I used homosexulaity. What do you think Paul? I think one should be totally Emergent and one shouldn't be totally Modern. One must have exactly 50/50 modern and postmodern in their philosophy. Paul, would you consider this post-post modern? :)

DH DH DH

Paul

DH, great thoughts bro. Post-post modern is probably a whole new subject, hect i'm still getting my head around just post-modern :)

I think it is all to the good to be self critical and self aware and study the scriptures as well as those who have commented on them - to be that is a wise way of forming ethical views. I think what i was thinking was the Q not just of what is the ethical truth of the issue - in the post modern world that is too easy to say ok that's your tribe great but my tribe do xyz... more I was trying to think about the shift away from the question of what is true to what use is that truth - to that end I think as a christian my ethics involve loving actions as well as loving words/thoughts...

If that makes sense?

dh

Paul, great points. However, I feel we need to equally focus on words, actions and thoughts. If we focus overboard on one of the three to the detrimate of the others that is when the observed problems of post-modern takes place. I think to any question made to modern Christians "what use is that truth" you will get clear definitive answers. To say those answers are not definitive I feel is a disservice to what Christ and the Word of God say. That is what I feel is the problem with post-modernity. I think if you see my balanced response in addressing the extremes (our discusions of heaven/hell; Salvation/Sanctification and the clarifications and understandings therein) then we can better address the problems of modern and post-modern Christianity. Hense, that is why I consider myself post-post-modern in that I see the resonsibility to all three of attitude, actions and words to Christ. IMHO, post-modern Christianity fails to address words that clearly go against Scripture but the actions/attitudes seem more often than not go with Scripture. At the same time the words of modern Christianity are right on but the attitude is such that it clouds the clear, perfect, consistent, Truth of Gods Word, personal responsibility, Body of Christ and the members living for Christ in everyway and I mean every way. Does that make sense? If we are honest BOTH seem incorrect. For me the problems of both modern and post-modern Christianity push me away from both to what I would call post-post modern where the correct words of the modern Christian are combined with the correct action of the post-modern Christian (even though I'm a strong conservative Christian that is not to say a Conservative can't be post-modern). I hope you get my point and that it is not confusing. I hope this gives you a little background into the term post-post modern. To me the answer to "what is the use of this truth?" is to help people change to the Glory of Christ and away from things that seperate one from Christ. That goes for actions, words and thoughts equally. Not just words (aka modern) or just actions/attitudes (aka post-modern) but equally both. If we had the correct words of the modern christian and the correct actions/attitudes of the post-modern Christian I think we could see a great outpouring of God's Spirit. Any thoughts? Again another great discussion. :)

Paul

Thanks DH, I really do appreciate you taking time out to be so full in your response.

I do find what you say intriguing however my fundamental is that modern christianity's claim on absolute and objective truth is largely overblown. That is not to say there is not a significant body of truth that the modern church has added to the cannon of church history - as there is. Personally I find my evengelical routes for instanec to be a delightful beneficial heritage, I am not anti modern, just that I for some ways have moved beyond it to something else.

You may well be right though, it's better than any theories I have :). Although I do wonder if we can merge modern/post-modern together as you suggest - in part as I think modernity has added to the richness of the tradition rather than as a seperate strand in and of itself. In other words modern will sit along side post-modern as a source of truth and a collection of some truths and the obscuring of others just as any other period of church history as. If you see what I mean?

However, I also agree that we are usually not as far as apart as the language would suggest and that end we enrich each other, well you enrich me anywho, to which I am grateful for the conversation.

dh

I guess for me I DO see absolute and objective truth in God's Word and the rejction thereof os what pushes me away from post-modern Christianity. Hesne,I don't see how it is overblown. When one looks at exactly as to what thew Word says, context, Scripture in light of Scripture, etc. then I don't see at all what you are saying. However, I do think the reason why people have "moved away to something else", if people are honest with themselves, is not what is said by modern Christianity but the attitude of the people who are modern Christianity Christians. So for me post-post moder Christianity is so important. The definitive truth of modern Christianity with the proper attitude of the post-modern Christianity (minus the anti-modern prevelent of many post-modern which is not yourself). I have no problem with new thought and ideas relvelation, etc. as long as they are consistent to God's Word. Once they deviate that is when I seperate from the "new ideas". Many times these ideas are not God's ideas but mans. When I see modern Christianity I see consistency and I see the absolute truth of God's Word. That is not to say I don't believein revelation and ALL of the Gifts of theSpirit but all those operate within the consistency of God's Word. When they aren't then I believe they are not of God but of man.

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